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 From the high desert in the great American Southwest, I bid you all good evening,
 or good morning as the case may be, across all these time zones.
 Stretching from way out in the Pacific with the Tahitian and Hawaiian island chains,
 eastward to the Caribbean and the U.S. Virgin Islands, south into South America,
 north to the pole, and worldwide on the internet, this is Coast to Coast AM.
 Good morning everybody, I'm Art Bell.
 And in the continuing adventure into the unknown, uncharted territories
 of the human mind, we're going to be departing a little in a way this night,
 and interviewing a very, very unusual individual on the big island of Hawaii
 named Terrence McKenna. Who is Terrence McKenna?
 Well, among other things, he's probably the successor to Timothy Leary.
 That may not be the focus, or it may turn into the focus of the interview, I don't know.
 And I don't care. He also has a lot of very interesting views on time,
 and what we are approaching.
 We'll talk about all that with Terrence McKenna, a very interesting fellow in a moment.
 As a matter of fact, he had to come down.
 Oh, we'll find out about that from a very obscure location.
 All right, this should be most interesting.
 First, let us see if we can establish contact.
 Terrence McKenna, are you there?
 I am, Art. Good evening, how are you?
 Well, I'm just fine, and I hope you hear me. I hear you okay.
 Yes, I hear you fine.
 All right, you are on the big island of Hawaii, is that right?
 That's right.
 Now, when I called you the other day, you were way up in an area where your only
 contact with the outside world was by cellular telephone.
 Where do you actually live? On a mountain somewhere?
 I live up on the slopes of the world's largest volcano, which is Mauna Loa.
 And when you called me the other day, we mutually agreed my cell phone is not ready for prime time.
 So I came off the mountain.
 I do have up there a 128k connect to the internet that's wireless 40 miles through the air.
 But my phones are not so good, so I came down off the mountain to talk to you this evening.
 Well, if it were not for the delay, I would say an internet phone.
 We could have done the interview by internet phone, but you have that little delay there
 that makes it hard.
 So I think we've done the right thing.
 Anyway, so you're off your mountain, Persia.
 By the way, Terrence, what's it like living on the side of an active volcano?
 Well, it's very exciting, actually.
 I don't know if you've ever been out to the big island, but people think of Hawaii as
 swaying palms and endless beaches.
 What we have out here are lava fields and 14,000 foot mountains on this island, two of them.
 One, the world's largest volcano, the world's largest mountain in terms of volume, and the
 other one just a hundred or so feet shorter.
 So we've got quite a dramatic landscape out here.
 Is there any possibility that that volcano will actually blow?
 Well, it's been in continuous eruption for the past 13 years, but over on the other side,
 about 70 miles away on what's called the helo or the wet side.
 So we sort of feel pretty safe out here.
 There is some talk.
 They had a meeting of the International Geophysical Congress a couple of years out here.
 There is large scale destabilization that goes on periodically in these islands, big
 undersea landslides that produce local tsunamis.
 But in an effort to escape human created catastrophe and confusion, I'm betting that I can eke out
 50 years on this island and slide through in good shape.
 Well, it's probably a pretty good bet, actually, in the long scheme of things.
 I think so.
 I think Hawaii, if the world flies to pieces, it'll be a very good place to be.
 And if the world doesn't fly to pieces, it's a pretty good place to be.
 And if the volcano should totally blow up, it's a painless death.
 That's right.
 And a dramatic one.
 Yeah, and a dramatic one as well.
 That's right.
 All right.
 You have a theory about time.
 Time, actually, Terrence, is one of my favorite all time topics.
 So before we launch into what you think about time, tell me what you think time is.
 In other words, is time our invention or is time a real thing that we--
 I mean, I realize we're measuring it, but in the cosmic scheme of things, is there really time?
 Yeah, I mean, you give me a perfect entree to launch into this thing.
 See, in the West, we have inherited from Newton what is called the idea of pure duration,
 which is simply that time is sort of a place where things are placed so that they don't all
 happen at once.
 In other words, it's viewed as quality-less.
 It's an abstraction.
 In fact, I think when we carry out a complete analysis of time, what we're going to discover
 is that, like matter, time is composed of elemental discrete type.
 You know, all matter, organic and inorganic, is composed of 104, 108 elements.
 There's argument.
 Time, on the other hand, is thought to be this featureless, quality-less medium, but in fact,
 as we experience it as living, feeling creatures, time has qualities.
 There are times where everything seems to go right and everything seems to go wrong.
 That's true.
 Terrence, that's absolutely true.
 I've wondered about that all my life.
 There are periods of time where, in effect, you can do no wrong.
 That's right.
 And other periods of time where you can do no right, no matter what you do.
 Well, so when looking at this, I created a vocabulary.
 Actually, I borrowed it from Alfred North Whitehead, but I think I'm on to something
 which science has missed, and it's this.
 It's that the universe, or a human life, or an empire, or an ecosystem, any large-scale
 or small-scale process can be looked upon as a kind of a dynamic struggle between two
 qualities, which I call habit and novelty.
 And I think they're pretty self-explanatory.
 I'm sorry, habit and what?
 Novelty.
 Novelty.
 Novelty.
 And habit is simply repetition of established pattern, conservation, folding back what has
 already been achieved into a system.
 And novelty is the chance-taking, the exploratory, the new, the never-before-seen.
 And these two qualities, habit and novelty, are locked in all situations in a kind of
 struggle, but the good news is that if you look at large scales of time, novelty is winning.
 And this is the point that I have been so concerned to make that I think science has
 overlooked, that if you look back through the history of the human race, or of life
 on this planet, or of the solar system and the galaxy, as you go backward in time, things
 become more simple, more basic.
 Yes.
 And so turning that on its head, we could say, as we come toward the present, things
 become more novel, more complex.
 So I've taken this to be actually a universal law affecting historical processes, biological
 processes, and astrophysical processes.
 Nature produces and conserves novelty.
 And what I mean by that is as the universe cooled, the original cloud of electron plasma,
 eventually atomic systems formed, as it further cooled molecular systems, then long-chain
 polymers, then non-nucleated primitive DNA containing life, later complex life, multicellular
 life.
 And this is a principle that reaches right up to our dear selves.
 And notice, Art, it's working across all scales of being.
 This is something that is as true of human societies as it is of termite populations
 or populations of atoms in a chemical system.
 Nature conserves, prefers novelty.
 And the interesting thing about an idea like this is it stands the existentialism of modern
 philosophy on its head.
 You know, what modern atheistic existentialism says is we're a cosmic accident and damn
 lucky to be here.
 And any meaning you get out of the situation, you're simply conferring.
 I say no.
 By looking deeply into the structure of nature, we can discover that novelty is what nature
 produces and conserves.
 And if that represents a universal value system, then the human world as we find it today with
 our technologies and our complex societies represents the greatest novelty so far achieved.
 And so suddenly you have a basis for an ethic.
 That which advances novelty is good.
 That which retards it is to be looked at very carefully.
 All right, let me stop you right there.
 One of the first things that you said when we got on the air this morning was that you
 had a 128 baud connection from your mountaintop secret location.
 Right.
 Okay.
 As we are discussing your theory, which is fascinating of novelty, I'm taken to ask you
 about a quote, actually, of several pages written by Michael Crichton.
 And I know you know who he is.
 With reference to the Internet, it is Michael Crichton's contention that the Internet, which
 one might consider to be novelty exemplified, indeed, is going to result not in more novelty,
 but in fact in a slowing of the process of evolution or novelty as you see it, because
 there will be a commonality.
 There will not be innovation.
 There will not be entrepreneurship.
 There will be ten main ideas in America and Hong Kong and Moscow and London and so forth.
 How would you address that?
 Well, I'm astonished.
 I hardly know what he's talking about.
 Let me give you my take on it.
 Okay, let me rephrase it.
 He's saying the Internet will stifle diversity and that diversity is critical to advancement.
 Well, what I see happening and I spend hours and hours a day on the Internet is I believe
 it's the greatest force empowering marginal and minority points of view to come along
 in centuries.
 In other words, before the Internet, the great establishment ideas already had the machinery
 of media to communicate their position.
 What has happened is that the common man has gotten into the game with technology that
 I really don't think was ever intended to fall into.
 Oh, you bet it wasn't.
 Yes.
 So I don't know what Triton is talking about.
 I believe what the Internet is doing is dissolving boundaries between people's idea systems,
 classes and factions, and we're getting a much richer evolutionary interplay among ideas
 and this sort of thing.
 So I see it as a very fertile place with a lot of mutation going on in hardware, in how
 people view it, ideologies, this sort of thing.
 I just don't know where he's coming from.
 Well, I might expand on it this way.
 He suggests, for example, that if you were to take an otherwise deserted or barren desert
 island and you were to put a species upon it, that species, because there are so few
 of them, would by necessity be very innovative, would change very quickly in trying to adapt
 and live and stay alive.
 On the other hand, if you put many, many creatures on that island, that process would be far
 slower.
 And he uses that as a parallel to the Internet.
 I'm not sure that I agree with it either.
 I just found it an interesting take on the sociological implications of the Internet.
 Well, you see, when people talk about the Internet, they're usually talking about the
 Internet that was, because it's moving so quickly.
 For example, I just read a paper by a guy named Alexander Cheslenko out at the Media
 Lab at MIT.
 And he's talking about plug-ins that will translate websites of one language into another.
 Well, now imagine when people can put up websites in Tolugu, Witoto, Russian, French, you name
 it, and you can automatically slide into those websites and see what's going on.
 You're describing Crichton's Nightmare and your best dream, I believe.
 Well, this is the thing about technology.
 It tends to polarize people.
 Let me make one point here before we leave this time thing.
 I said I'd identified a tendency in the universe which science had missed, which was to conserve
 novelty.
 And then you asked about the Internet, which sort of led me to the second half of the observation.
 Not only does the universe have this preference for novelty, but each acceleration into novelty
 has proceeded more quickly than the ones which proceeded it.
 So, for instance, the slow cooling out of the universe led to the slightly more rapid
 appearance of organic chemistry, which led to the quite rapid evolution of higher plants
 and animals.
 It led to the hysterical pace of human history.
 And I see no reason to suppose that that process of acceleration will ever slow down.
 Is it, Terrence, a linear process or an exponentially accelerating process?
 It's an exponentially accelerating process, which leads to a kind of end of the world
 scenario that has made a lot of people place me out with the squirrels because I'm saying
 that this process of novelty is now moving so quickly that within our own lifetime it
 is going to accelerate essentially to such an intensity that we will be experiencing
 more novelty in a few weeks or days than we've previously experienced in the whole life of
 the cosmos.
 My God, you have described precisely what I have just written about, called, I wrote
 a book called The Quickening.
 Someone showed me your book and I said, "This is in Atlanta."
 I saw it and I said, "Yes, this guy is on to this."
 I'm on to it from, I guess, more of a pedestrian perspective than yourself after listening
 to your first half hour, Terrence, but we're talking about, it suddenly dawned on me exactly,
 precisely the same thing.
 I've been doing this talk radio program for about 13 years, you know, the all-night show.
 And I am a trained observer of events and people.
 And every night I've had to watch the news and dissect what is going on in our world
 to prepare to do this program.
 And in that 13 years, unmistakably, socially, economically, politically, environmentally,
 you name it, we can talk about it, in every one of those areas of human endeavor, things
 are beginning to accelerate.
 There's simply no question about it.
 And that sounds exactly to me the same thing you're proposing here.
 Yes.
 Where I've gone further than most people is a lot of people have noticed the time is
 speeding up phenomenon, but they tend to give credit to science or media or something like
 that.
 That's right.
 Yes.
 Well, what I'm saying is this is built into the laws of physics.
 Oh, I think you're right.
 Terrence, we're at the bottom of the hour.
 I think you're exactly right, Terrence.
 Stay right where you are.
 Interesting.
 Very interesting.
 Terrence McKenna from the Big Island of Hawaii is my guest.
 I'm Art Bell and this is CBC.
 Thank you.
 Art Bell is taking calls on the wildcard line at 702-727-1295.
 First line callers can reach Art Bell at 702-727-1222.
 702-727-1222.
 Now, here again, Art Bell.
 Once again, here I am.
 Good morning, everybody.
 It's great to be here.
 And we have a very, very interesting fellow on the line.
 His name is Terrence McKenna.
 And he's from the Big Island of Hawaii.
 And he has just described to me in language that you had to listen very carefully to,
 exactly what I wrote about.
 The quickening.
 And we'll pick up on that in a moment.
 It's fascinating.
 My God, it's like hearing my own theory amplified, coming back at me, or an explanation of what I
 wrote about.
 Wow.
 Anyway, in a moment, back to Terrence.
 Back now to Hawaii and Terrence McKenna.
 Terrence, I thought we lost you for a moment.
 But I think we have you back.
 Are you there?
 Oh, yeah.
 OK.
 There will be silences during the break.
 So do not interpret that as we have disconnected, Terrence.
 Only if you get a dial tone are we in trouble.
 Otherwise, just hang in there, OK?
 All righty.
 All right.
 I mean, I sat here as I listened to you the first half hour in shock.
 Because I realized you were describing exactly what I wrote about.
 And what I did, Terrence, I realized that a lot of people say this quickening, or whatever
 you want to call it, whatever name you want to put to it, is a byproduct of mass communication.
 And I began to realize, uh-uh.
 No, it is not a product of mass communication.
 Yes, we're hearing about it more and more volumes of it.
 But in fact, in fact, what you are describing is really going on.
 And I documented that much in my book, In Real Everyday Life, in each one of these areas,
 and many more.
 I documented the fact that it is not mass communication that is beginning to quicken
 things.
 But there is another process at work.
 Now, I don't know what that is.
 And I don't know where it's leading.
 In other words, people will say, well, when we finally get to this crunch point, whatever
 that is, what will happen?
 And I don't have that answer.
 I'm just a talk show host, an observer.
 But maybe you do.
 When we finally reach what you call time wave zero, what is going to happen?
 Well, the only way to predict what's going to happen is to look at the quality of what
 has happened as the quickening, as you call it, has begun to accelerate.
 What it's been characterized by is dissolution of boundaries between classes of people, bodies
 of knowledge, pools of capital, language groups, so forth and so on.
 And so it seems to me ultimate novelty must be a situation where all boundaries are dissolved.
 And of course, what that looks like, I don't know.
 I don't know whether it's a virtual reality where you become God through the public utilities
 or exactly what it is.
 But it's clear to me that the human nervous system is globalizing itself, building a model
 of conscious thought on a planetary scale.
 Tens of thousands of people are participating in this.
 None of them have a real notion what it's all about.
 But everyone is serving this sort of unfolding grand design.
 And, you know, I think the emergence of alphabets was part of the quickening.
 I think the emergence of hominids out of more primitive primates was part of this quickening.
 I think this is the business that this planet has been about for a very, very long time.
 Are you able to discern any timelines to time wave zero?
 Well, yes.
 I mean, we've been talking about this as a metaphor.
 What makes me, I hope, a little different from some of the other prophets in the marketplace
 is I've got a formal mathematical theory that, you know, I mentioned habit and novelty, this
 dualistic flow.
 Yes.
 Well, because it is a dualistic flow, it can be portrayed like the ebb and flow of the
 price of a stock or something like that.
 In other words, it can be portrayed as a line graph.
 So I've written computer programs which produce what I call novelty waves.
 In other words, time scaled waves that picture the ebb and flow of novelty.
 And by fitting known historical and paleontological and geological data against these waves at
 different scales, I was able to finally discern a best fit.
 But the conclusion that it led to was even, well, was very startling to me, which is this
 ultimate novelty, this transcendental object at the end of time isn't millennia in the
 future.
 It is in fact slated to collide with historical necessity sometime in late 2012.
 2012.
 2012.
 Now, I know you have some interest in the Mayan calendar.
 I do.
 I didn't know when I calculated this date that it was the same end date as the Mayan
 calendar to the day.
 Oh my.
 Let me ask you this, Terrence.
 What did you input to your database for this computer program?
 In other words, what did I start with?
 Yes.
 Well, I started, I had a very academic interest in the Qing, which is the Chinese method of
 divination.
 And everyone who's looked at this thing has been struck by the fact that it seems to work.
 And so I carried out a mathematical analysis.
 Wait.
 I don't know what Qing is, and I bet a lot of other people don't either.
 A Chinese method of divining.
 What kind of method?
 What is it?
 Well, it's existed for thousands of years in China.
 It's sometimes done by throwing 50 stocks or sometimes done with coins.
 But it's a method of producing a thing called a hexagram, which is made up of either broken
 or unbroken lines, but six on top of each other.
 So if you're a mathematician, you can figure if it's made up of broken and unbroken lines,
 and there are six of them on top of each other, there must be a possibility of 64 of these
 things.
 And thousands of years ago in China, there was a vast body of literary commentary built
 up around these hexagrams.
 And they have always been presented in a traditional order, a certain way that they are always
 presented.
 And I was studying a very academic question, which is, is this order of these hexagrams
 a true order, in other words, governed by rules, or is it simply a random jumble sanctioned
 by tradition?
 And this very obscure academic question led ultimately to the discovery that the I Ching
 was a 384-day, 13 lunar cycle calendar.
 And then from there, I realized that this 384-day calendar was actually a nested subset
 in a fractal timekeeping scheme that was really more accurate and more sophisticated than
 anything in the West.
 So what I'm really suggesting here is that in the same way that the West conquered the
 nature of matter through the elaboration of modern science, about 4,000 years ago in China,
 a deeper analysis of time was carried out than has ever been undertaken in the West,
 and that the mathematics of this thing became buried then in this fortune-telling system.
 And I basically teased it out, and in my book, The Invisible Landscape, and at my website,
 all this stuff is explained.
 It's quite...
 Oh, Terrence, what is your website?
 It's at levity.
 It's www.levity.com, and then just click on Terrence McKenna there.
 Levity is L-E-V-I-T-Y.
 Got it.
 So it's www.levity.com?
 Correct.
 We'll get a link up shortly.
 Well, I think you do.
 I visited your website today.
 You've got good people.
 Yeah, Keith does a wonderful job.
 All right, well, so then you get there and then just click on Terrence McKenna,
 and be sure you're buckled in from the sound of what I've heard so far.
 Well, the interesting thing, you see, Art, is with a wave like that,
 you can do what's called retrodicting.
 In other words, if you have a wave of novelty that describes the past,
 Yes.
 you have to correctly predict the Italian Renaissance, the Greek Enlightenment,
 the modernity of the 20th century.
 And so by predicting the past, we've gained confidence that this wave predicts the future.
 That sounds quite scientific.
 In other words, science is repeatability.
 And if you can repeatedly demonstrate that you can mathematically show the events of the past,
 then yes, I would imagine you could project.
 Well, so I've been at this since 1975, but the theory is, in a sense, very conservative.
 It never says what will happen. It says when interesting things are highly likely,
 and when you're just wasting your time.
 When you look out or project out toward 2012,
 what is the magnitude of the spike or the difference there?
 If you can give us an idea of magnitudes along the way.
 There is only one point in the entire cycle where the level of habit drops to zero.
 Effectively, then novelty becomes infinite.
 And that point occurs on this solstice date in 2012.
 Now, it's very interesting.
 There are some people on the net called the singularists.
 And they're hard-headed engineering types.
 And they take things like rate of energy released, rate of data storage,
 this sort of thing, and draw all their curves out.
 And they conclude that sometime between 2008 and 2020,
 we produce infinite amounts of energy.
 We pack infinite amounts of data into infinitely small spaces.
 In other words, this same sort of thing,
 where because of the acceleration built into the unfolding of this novelty process,
 we're going to cross more territory between here and 2012
 than we've crossed between the Big Bang and getting to here.
 That's an incredible thought.
 It kind of explains what's happening, you know.
 That it isn't the old-style religion.
 That it isn't the sterile, steady state of science either.
 It's that the universe is actually involved in some kind of process of self-metamorphosis.
 And human beings indicate that we have crossed some boundary into a new era,
 a new epoch of ever-greater acceleration into this process of self-revelation.
 I mean, this is what religions are raving about.
 This is what every prophet on the street corner is trying to articulate.
 I don't question.
 I think it's real.
 I think we're getting a lot of static because people can only deal with it through images that they know.
 You know, Marshall McLuhan once said,
 "We drive into the future using only our rear-view mirror."
 And that's sort of what it is.
 But I call this thing the transcendental object at the end of time.
 And I think, you know, in a sense, religion and Christian revelation,
 it will all be fulfilled in a way none of us ever suspected.
 Because nature has this appetite for novelty and acceleration into novelty.
 And so then again, I ask, at this moment that we speak of, 2012,
 what do you actually think will occur?
 Well, I've thought about this a good deal, and they're hard and soft scenarios.
 But I've noticed that what the time wave seems most coherently able to track is technology.
 Somehow technology is very important.
 It's the transformation of the human relationship to the world through tools.
 And so what I'm thinking would fulfill this entire scenario
 without requiring God Almighty to put in an appearance is time travel.
 I think that we are moving toward, you know,
 if you look at biology over huge scales of time, hundreds of millions of years,
 it is a kind of conquest of dimensionality.
 All right, let's consider that.
 Somebody recently said, and I have been considering since I heard it,
 a very simple question.
 If time travel is possible, then where are the time travelers?
 Well, when I asked that question to my sources, they said,
 "You can only travel as far back into the past as the moment of the invention
 of the first time machine, because before that there were no time machines."
 Huh. Huh.
 That, I, but let me think about that.
 Does that make sense?
 You could only travel back to the moment of the invention of the time machine,
 because prior to that, there was no capability.
 It's like trying to drive where there are no roads.
 Yeah.
 It also means when you invent the first time machine,
 instantly time machines will appear by the tens of thousands,
 having come back through time to see the first flight into time.
 That's incredible.
 I never, that's a whole new line of thought for me about that question.
 And it might make sense.
 It might make sense.
 And your analogy is trying to, that you cannot drive, in essence,
 Where there are no roads.
 Where there are no roads.
 Well, of course, you nearly do that when you go home from the broadcast here, but.
 And you haven't even been up to see me.
 You're psychic.
 We're very proud of our bad roads.
 I understand.
 It keeps the riffraff away, I suppose.
 It certainly does.
 Actually, it doesn't keep the riffraff away, but it keeps everybody else away.
 How long, Terrence, have you been residing on the side of the volcano there?
 Well, continuously for about three and a half years.
 I've had land out here for about, well, since '77.
 Since '77, and before that?
 I grew up in western Colorado, and I had my children and my marriage and all that in California.
 I lived 35 years in northern California.
 You knew Timothy Leary, yes?
 I knew him.
 We appeared in public, mostly in Europe together a few times, and he certainly was a huge influence
 on me.
 I only came to know him in the past seven or eight years, but as a kid growing up in
 the '60s, he was an enormous influence on me.
 You are now being called by many his heir apparent, his heir now, I guess.
 Well, I think not by many, but I was called it by him.
 Everybody else kept their mouth shut.
 My method, I'm very interested in the psychedelic experience.
 I was raised Catholic, and what I kept of that was an enormous thirst for the paranormal,
 the miraculous, supernatural.
 I went to India, and I made the rounds of the gurus and the Geshe's, and I didn't find
 what I was looking for.
 But when I went to South America, to the jungles down there, I discovered that LSD was only
 the tip of the psychedelic iceberg.
 What I had taken to be modern science and modern chemistry was actually a tradition
 of shamanism and religious use of psychedelic plants that was thousands and thousands of
 years old.
 That fascinated me because I actually, it worked for me.
 Most people who seek the mystery with--
 Listen, let us pick this up after the top of the hour.
 Now, listen to me carefully.
 You've got about a 10-minute break here, at least, and you're not going to hear anything.
 Don't let it bother you.
 Just put the phone down, grab a cup of coffee or something or another, and we'll be back
 to you, OK?
 All right.
 Stay right there.
 This is CBC.
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 Some of it takes the form of faster-than-light speed tachyon particles, or waves, which can
 travel faster than light, and that they're actually being hurdled backward in time.
 The closer we get to the event, the greater the radiation density.
 Hence, the more frequently and intensely we experience paranormal phenomena associated
 with it.
 We'll ask about that, by the way.
 We haven't yet.
 This could be the mechanism behind what you call the quickening.
 The event we are approaching will probably be something tantamount to a white hole or
 a mini Big Bang.
 It will, for all intents and purposes, be the end of time for us.
 Terence believes it will occur consistent with the Mayan calendar in the year 2012.
 Now, by the way, he has derived this independently of the Mayan calendar.
 He simply has discovered that it coincides with it.
 He goes on, "It is not unreasonable to assume that ETs, possessing UFOs, if they exist,
 will be flocking here to research, or rather, pre-search, the phenomenon.
 It is also believed that tachyon bombardment would have bizarre effects on the human nervous
 system, visions, that sort of thing, as well as physical manifestations in the environment,
 like the Clearwater Virgin, bizarre mutations like the chupacabra, and heaven knows what
 else.
 All the stuff you attribute to the quickening might be explained by this."
 And after listening to the first hour, I must agree.
 Terence, I'm stealing one more bit of time to read you a fact that I think relates and
 challenges you a little bit.
 It is from Stephen in Wichita, and it's well thought out.
 Here it is.
 "I'm not sure that you can equate novelty with either acceleration or complexity.
 Novelty, in nature, has always been novel, and surprisingly so considering earlier periods
 in Earth's history.
 Given that over 90% of all species that have ever lived are now extinct, and the exotic
 body designs, it would seem novelty is a given.
 But in order to be effective, it must have a survival advantage and be passed on.
 Once the novelty becomes a hindrance, it disappears.
 Acceleration may be more a factor of population density.
 Virtually all of the social problems we face today have been duplicated years ago in rat
 population density studies.
 Our novel inventions of this century have simply allowed us to artificially compress
 distance and time by modes of travel and communications.
 Profit motives have directed and limited the novelty of our civilization in this century
 as never before, and we are becoming a hindrance.
 The higher the population density, the more the acceleration seems to be.
 Anecdotal but relative, compare the pace of a small country town to a large city with
 its population density and resulting problems accelerated by stress and profit motives."
 That's from Steve in Wichita.
 What do you think, Terrence?
 Well, I don't disagree with all of that.
 I think there's certainly been ebb and flow of novelty within the 20th century, parts
 of it more novel than others.
 But I think to argue that it isn't among the most novel periods in time is a pretty uphill
 battle.
 The question is whether novelty is something which simply adheres to statistical dynamics
 or whether it's a real direction, a real arrow that is directing process, and that's what
 I maintain.
 I think it's not true to say that the biota of the earth today is not more novel than
 it was in the past.
 Certainly there are novel forms of life which have undergone extinction, but the proliferation
 of human life, which is an advanced animal plus a culture-creating creature, indicates
 to me that we're at a level of novelty that this planet has never before experienced.
 Of course, it's an arguable thing because history, which is what we're always comparing
 these waves to, is not yet a quantified thing.
 I mean, how do you rate the War of the Roses over Queen Anne's War or something like that?
 But nevertheless, though we don't have an absolute quantification of history, there
 is general agreement among historians that events like the Renaissance, the Greek Golden
 Age, the 20th century, are periods where a great deal of novelty in social forms and
 technologies was concentrated.
 All right.
 You put together a computer program which was able to trace the ebb and the flow of
 this novelty and, in effect, chart major events in history.
 How many, if I might ask, hits and misses, when you've got this in final development
 and then you look at each point in history, how many hits and misses, were there any misses
 in the model or did you hit each major moment in history on the nose?
 Well, by my understanding of this theory, there can be no misses.
 In other words, it's not a statistical theory.
 We're not okay if we're right two-thirds of the time.
 Hear, hear.
 So we have to be right all the time.
 So you're telling me you are.
 I submit to you and to the world for your examination and critiquing the fact that,
 yes, the time wave, with its end point in December 21, 2012, describes with as great
 an accuracy as I am able to discern the actual vicissitudes of novelty and habit in history
 and natural history.
 That's the claim.
 That's right.
 Terrence, have you submitted this?
 I mean, this is serious science that you're discussing.
 Have you submitted this?
 Because of its repeatability.
 That's science.
 Now, have you submitted this to peer review?
 Well, among mathematicians, yes.
 And there's a lively debate raging on the Internet about that.
 Let me say something, though, here about science and why the acceptance of the time wave can't
 really occur under the tent of ordinary science.
 You have mentioned repeatability.
 Repeatability is the idea at the very basis of the scientific method, at the very basis
 of experiment.
 That's right.
 And that's called restoration of initial conditions.
 But now notice that what the time wave theory is saying is that every moment in time is
 a unique moment.
 Is unique and will not specifically repeat.
 But what you're suggesting is that you can plot the highs of novelty throughout history.
 Yes, you can.
 But you cannot assume that you're doing it probabilistically.
 In other words, essentially, when you really understand philosophically what the time wave
 is saying, it's an enormous attack on probability theory.
 You know, the way science works now is if you want to know how much energy is flowing
 through a wire, you take a thousand measurements, you add them together and you divide by a
 thousand and then you have the current flowing through the wire.
 But notice that that assumes that it doesn't matter what time you make the measurement.
 And so much of science is like this to the point where I am redefining science and saying
 science is the study of those phenomena so coarse grained that the time in which they
 occurred does not affect them.
 And that leaves out then history, love affairs, corporate takeovers, empire building.
 Everything interesting in the human world is too fragile, too finely embedded in the
 context of its time to be open to that kind of scientific modeling.
 So in other words, they're really relatively small, insignificant events that don't enter
 into the larger measurements you're making of this ebb and flow.
 Well, for instance, on a given day when the chart says novelty will be high, certainly
 somewhere in the world someone is having a very un-novel day.
 It's a statistical thing, a bell curve, no reference to you Art, but a bell curve where
 when the wave is predicting high novelty, most people, most systems will experience
 that novelty, but of course some will not.
 It's the idea that probability is ebbing and flowing.
 You know, when you study statistics, the first thing they teach you is when you flip a coin
 the odds are 50/50, heads or tails.
 If that were true, the coin would land on its edge every single time.
 That's the rarest of all results in a coin toss.
 Indeed.
 So what's really happening is that what are called secondary and tertiary factors are
 causing the coin to be heads or tails.
 I say no.
 There are zones in time where heads are favored and zones in time where tails are favored.
 The idea that time can be described as a perfectly smooth surface and then dealt with statistically
 is just a first pass with Greek idealism and careful examination of nature shows it to
 be inadequate in the same way that perfect circles were inadequate for describing planetary
 motion.
 You are therefore saying that conventional science does not have and cannot have with
 its present course of investigation a proper understanding of time.
 That's right, because it assumes that it is to be analyzed with statistics and that flattens
 out and denies the difference among various times and types of time.
 God, Terence, how long have you been working on this?
 Oh, since 1971.
 1971?
 Yes.
 You told me that you are originally from a Colorado family and all that back in Colorado.
 Then finally, exile?
 Well, essentially yes.
 I got myself to the University of California at Berkeley right at the time of the anti-war
 movement and all of that.
 It was like a kid in a cultural candy store and studied philosophy, art history and then
 went off to Asia basically to check out the hash bins and the gurus.
 The hash was fine, but the gurus just wanted into my pocket.
 So then I went to South America and as I mentioned, that's where this shamanism thing just really
 grabbed me.
 Which part of South America, Terence?
 Southern Columbia, the Putumayo River Basin.
 You know, it's the psychedelic plants that are so fascinating to me because you mentioned
 repeatability.
 Here is a technology, a technique that lets you repeatedly and with relative safety journey
 into alien worlds filled with alien forms of intelligence.
 It's the only thing I've found that does that.
 In other words, I've investigated Flying Saucers, crop circles, this and that.
 It doesn't turn me on.
 Let me quickly stop you there and ask you about crop circles.
 Many people feel that they are fractal in nature.
 If you're on the internet, I know you've seen photographs of some of the more amazing ones,
 Stonehenge, some of the rest of them.
 They do appear to be fractal.
 What is your thinking there?
 Well, I was thinking, you know, I don't think it's been published in this country, but this
 wonderful book called Around in Circles by Jim Schnabel, to my mind that blows the lid
 off the whole crop circle thing.
 You and I could spend a whole evening discussing the relationship of the media to the human
 psyche, to how people handle evidence.
 Because I really think the psychedelic community has evidence to give on these paranormal questions
 that has never been properly heard and evaluated because the ordinary society's attitude towards
 people who use psychedelics is that they are automatically unreliable.
 Yes, I know.
 But I think we're not going to crack stuff like UFO abductions and that sort of thing
 unless we admit the psychedelic evidence.
 And if we do admit it, suddenly the whole thing begins to look very, very different.
 All right, Terrence, I don't reject it.
 A lot of guests that I've had on who have been into the very same areas we're in right
 now, very politically correctly rejected out of hand.
 You don't need it to accomplish this, they say, that you can do it within yourself.
 And I don't reject that thought either.
 But I would like to hear the case that you would present for psychedelics opening the
 doors that you're talking about, that in fact they do.
 How would you make that case?
 Well, I hear what you're saying is you're equating spiritual techniques like yoga and
 prayer and human decency and that sort of thing.
 I'm not sure there's a connection.
 I mean, it does help to be an ethical person to take psychedelics.
 But for instance, the psychedelic that has fascinated me most over the years is DMT,
 dimethyltryptamine.
 Now, this is not a well-known substance.
 No, it isn't.
 What is it?
 Well, that's what it is, dimethyltryptamine.
 It occurs in a number of plant species throughout the world.
 It's utilized by native peoples.
 And in the pure form out of the laboratory, when you smoke this stuff, you find yourself
 inside the flying saucer that all these dazzled people are raving about.
 But you found yourself there by initiating an action on your own.
 In other words, repeatability.
 And after about three minutes of spending time with the self-transforming elf machines
 and their technologies, you're deposited back in your apartment, pretty much none the worse
 for wear.
 Well, now, let's give this stuff to the leading lights of the UFO community or anyone else
 who has an interest in unusual psychological or paranormal phenomena.
 All right.
 All right.
 Hold tight, Terrence.
 We're at another break point.
 Stay put.
 We'll be right back to you.
 This is CBC.
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 Art Bell is taking calls on the wildcard line at 702-727-1295.
 That's 702-727-1295.
 First-time callers can reach Art Bell at 702-727-1222.
 702-727-1222.
 Now, here again, Art Bell.
 You know, when I tell you we have different shows, maybe you're beginning to believe me.
 Terrence McKenna is my guest.
 What a totally interesting individual he is.
 You've got to sit by the radio, turn the volume up a little bit, put down your book or whatever
 else you're doing, and listen.
 Back now to the big island of Hawaii and a very unusual individual named Terrence McKenna.
 Terrence, I've got a question for you.
 Have you ever watched Star Trek?
 Oh, yes.
 Oh, yes. Good.
 You're familiar, then, with the prime directive.
 Thou shalt not interfere is, I believe, the prime directive.
 Yeah, that's right.
 Yeah.
 Now, what you are saying is so serious and is such a large revelation that is it not possible
 that you are, in a sense, doing what you're doing right now, violating the prime directive?
 Well, you know, it's only been about 100 years since the news began to arrive in the lap
 of Western civilization that there were these psychoactive plants scattered around the world.
 The first one was the peyote cactus, and in 1888, mescaline was extracted from that.
 I think it's not without implication that right at our moment of greatest cultural crisis,
 when we're destroying the environment and uprooting the rainforest and so forth and so on,
 that out of those same rainforests comes a phenomenon which, if we will face it squarely,
 offers a severe challenge to our notion of how reality works and how the world is put together.
 And what if we miss it?
 What if we burn down, finally, enough of the rainforest that that one plant that we could have used is destroyed?
 Well, this may have already happened in the sense that there are many known cases of people
 collecting promising plants from only one known source and then returning a few months
 or years later to find the whole thing paved over.
 That's right.
 All right, tackle this one, Art.
 Very interesting.
 Terence describes a workable scenario, but my question with it is this.
 Is this a universal process or only a localized effect?
 I believe that one of the theories of modern physics describes that observations affect the process
 or thing being observed.
 Isn't it possible that the data, the random sticks in China, is somewhat skewed by what is being determined?
 As to time, hasn't everybody noticed the phenomenon of time being perceived to slow down,
 depending on how frequently you, for example, look at the clock?
 Cooks have noticed the same effect with boiling water.
 The quickening may be happening because we notice certain events and then notice more of the same
 as time goes along.
 In other words, we cause the process to occur at least from our point of view, Ed, in Nashville.
 Is this a moment of deep thinking?
 Yes, well, I am thinking.
 I think it's a kind of self-fulfilling prophecy.
 I think we are contributing to it as we uncover it within ourselves.
 Yes.
 Something is calling us toward itself, and as we approach it, we become more like it.
 Something is sculpting out of the primate body over a couple of million years
 an entirely different kind of creature.
 And as we go to meet this thing, which I call the transcendental mystery at the end of time,
 we are taking on more and more of its characteristics, its godlike power,
 its ability to span space and time.
 And when we finally do reach it, I imagine there will be a kind of effortless moment of merging and recognition.
 Signposts along the way, life on Mars, maybe Europa, cloning.
 The rise of the Internet, virtual reality, nanotechnology, possibly alien artifacts, all that and more.
 One image I carry of this thing, Art, is you know those mirrored balls they hang in dance clubs
 that send scintillations racing around the walls?
 Well, the scintillations are distortions of the thing.
 So as we approach this transcendental object at the end of time,
 there will be more and more breakdown of ordinary reality and more and more distorted scenarios of what it is.
 That clearly is a process underway now.
 Yes, and everyone is through their own fears, religious training, hopes,
 they're trying to project what is it, what is it?
 A lot of fear, a lot of uncertainty.
 I am not afraid of it.
 I would really like, one of the great things about the psychedelic aliens is
 they don't vibrate with this strange vibe that the fetal trading greys of popular media vibrate with.
 It's a much more upbeat and affirmative kind of alien contact that occurs through the plant.
 This one plant or this one drug that you described...
 Dimethyltryptamine.
 DMT, I don't know what that is.
 Well, what makes it so attractive in a discussion like this, Art,
 is it's one of the most powerful of all the psychedelics, but it only lasts five minutes.
 Five minutes?
 Five minutes.
 So someone who has spent a lifetime dissing psychedelics or denying the existence of the paranormal,
 for that matter, should at least be willing to invest five minutes.
 We've never lost anybody.
 You pick yourself up and go on about your business.
 Five minutes.
 Five minutes.
 The effects, could you describe them to much of my audience that I know can recall the effects of LSD
 or various mushrooms?
 It's very different.
 Very different, huh?
 Well, LSD is a kind of psychological self-examination and strange thought processes and insights.
 What happens with DMT is there is the unmistakable feeling of having gone to a place.
 In other words, it comes on in about 15 seconds.
 And suddenly you're in a place, and this place is full of what I call self-dribbling jeweled basketballs
 that are intelligent in some sense.
 They're like badly trained rottweilers.
 They come pounding forward, and what they're doing in there is they're conducting some kind of a language lesson
 because they speak -- they have a language which you can see is the only way I can explain it.
 What is the source of DMT?
 Is it a manufactured drug?
 It can be, but its source is really in nature, in plants like Cicotria viridis, Desmantis elenoyensis.
 There's a whole bunch of this Latin salad.
 Most of these are South American plants, but every ecosystem on Earth has DMT sources in it.
 In fact, the human brain naturally produces DMT.
 Why? We don't know, but I'd say there's a strong clue.
 Here's a drug which causes people to see little creatures,
 and this same substance occurs naturally in the human brain.
 Now, I'm not saying that's the answer to the UFO phenomenon,
 but how many people have looked at this and pursued it?
 Well, then let me ask this.
 There are many who claim to have been abducted, Terrence,
 and if DMT is a naturally occurring substance in the brain,
 your theory could probably be verified by measuring those who have claimed to be abducted.
 Would such a measurement scientifically be possible?
 Well, the problem is, you recall I said it only lasts five minutes,
 so unusual amounts of it in the body are very quickly brought down to baseline.
 It's one of the most transient drugs in the body ever, ever observed.
 And an interesting thing about it, Art, is when they measure its presence,
 they look at human cerebrospinal fluid,
 and they've discovered that it reaches its greatest concentration there
 between three and four in the morning.
 Well, that's when people are doing the intense REM dreaming.
 Yes.
 And so I think what--
 You know, the Australian aboriginals have this concept of the dream time.
 Yes.
 And I think when you put the dream time, the chemistry of DMT,
 the abduction stories together,
 and the depth with which modern media has programmed and messed with people,
 you're very close to being able to begin to talk about the alien phenomenon.
 I think there are aliens, but I think they can only reach us through our minds.
 They don't cross the universe in ships of titanium.
 They don't even project holograms of themselves into the desert air.
 They come through the human mind.
 And if you look at the human mind, in all cultures and in all times and places,
 except Western Europe in a few intellectuals in the past few hundred years,
 the human mind has always been haunted by sprites, gnomes, Nixies, elves.
 Yes.
 So I don't see the UFO, the modern wave,
 as anything more than the latest wave of this mysterious relationship
 we have with disembodied minds through the imagination.
 Well, then people say, "Well, so this is the old psychological reduction argument."
 No, because when I say the human imagination,
 I don't mean some paltry psychological function.
 I think the human imagination is the largest part of us
 and where we're going to spend most of the rest of human history.
 Here, here.
 All right.
 How is such a theory greeted by the majority of people who listen to it?
 I mean, right now I'm getting a lot of faxes,
 and a lot of people are really hearing what you're saying,
 even though you've got to listen very carefully.
 They're hearing what you're saying, Terrence,
 and a lot of them are agreeing with you.
 But there's going to be a big body of very violent disagreement, too, isn't there?
 Well, yes.
 There are some very large eggs at stake in this game.
 I mentioned science and the need to revive probability theory.
 There is a lot of vested interest in certain versions of what the UFO phenomenon is.
 But you see, what I bring to all of this,
 and speaking for the psychedelic community,
 what we bring to all of this is not simply another rap or another tall tale,
 but a message.
 Oh, no, I hear that.
 So then would you suggest that sightings of UFOs, abduction encounters,
 if you could be there measuring a burst of DMT, you'd certainly find it at that moment?
 I think you would find it.
 And I think you would also--another place where you would find it is at human death.
 I think this is very important.
 At human death?
 At human death.
 I think as we die, we have, if we haven't had it, a DMT trip.
 I also think probably every night in these deep dream states,
 we penetrate into realms from which we can remember almost nothing.
 Well, then that would be another moment at which you should be able to measure a spike in DMT level in the brain.
 Are you talking about death?
 No, no.
 Yes, yes.
 I'm talking about both instances you cited, REM sleep, deep REM sleep, and the moment of death.
 Well, it's been confirmed in deep REM, doing this kind of research on dying people,
 you get a lot of ethical questions.
 I understand.
 But you're saying it has been confirmed?
 Do you know where?
 In deep sleep?
 No, no, no.
 In what institution there has been confirmation of this?
 Well, at the University of Mississippi a few years ago, a team led by a guy named Christian,
 all those papers are in the literature, and in fact, anyone interested in this should just search DMT on the Internet,
 and they may have never heard of it, but they will be astonished.
 Well, I've never heard of it, but your chain of logic is making sense to me.
 Now, let us talk for a second about paranormal events.
 As we approach time wave zero, it is your contention, I think, that paranormal events, ghosts, poltergeists,
 paranormal events of all manner and shape will begin to increase, which would suggest, I think, that DMT spikes will be increasing.
 Yes?
 It's a way of putting it, and certainly DMT is becoming more known in society,
 and there's almost a fad now of locating plants in one's environment and extracting this stuff and getting enough out to actually hit the money.
 Yes. Do we have laws against it yet, by the way?
 I guess I ought to ask her.
 Well, it's an interesting situation.
 Here it is in a human neurotransmitter. Every single one of us has it in our body.
 And, yes, this is among the most illegal substances.
 It figures.
 It figures, doesn't it?
 Yeah, it does. It figures.
 It's the catch-22. We're all holding ours.
 Well, the way things are going, we'll probably all be tossed in a pokey for it.
 We'll have little roadside stops and DMT measuring devices.
 Well, I think this was the add-on to all.
 I'm going to return to another subject for a second.
 You made a fascinating statement.
 I said, "Well, if there's time travel, where are the time travelers?"
 Your answer was, "They will not be here until the first time machine is invented," because you could not go back to a time prior to the invention of a machine that would enable travel.
 Your parallel was, "You can't travel where there are not roads."
 And there are not roads back that far in time.
 If time is to virtually end by 2012, Terrence, where would you see the invention of a time machine, the first time machine, between now and then?
 Well, I don't think it's between now and then.
 Actually, I think it's then.
 It's then?
 It's then.
 In other words, if what the time wave zero thing is showing is that events can be portrayed in this linear way as a line on a graph, that suddenly in 2012, for some mysterious reason, this can no longer be done, it must be because in 2012 time ceases to be linear.
 And that must mean that's because a technology is created which causes time to lose its linear and serial quality, and that could only be time travel.
 And you believe that at that moment, tens of thousands or millions or who knows of time travelers will suddenly show up?
 Well, actually, that's my conservative model of what would happen.
 What's against that is, I'm sure you've heard this, the well-known grandfather paradox, which is time travel is always said to be impossible because you travel back in time and you could kill your own grandfather.
 How do we avoid this?
 I think we avoid it by actually what happens when the first time machine is invented is the rest of universal history happens instantly.
 This is the only way paradox can be kept out of the picture.
 So I call it the God whistle scenario.
 So in other words, linearity ends at that instant.
 The rest of the history of the universe occurs in a few milliseconds.
 It's sort of the reverse of the Big Bang where you get a lot of action in the first few nanoseconds of the universe's life.
 In this model, the universe undergoes half of its morphogenetic unfolding in the last few milliseconds of its existence.
 Is that then the moment when the human race, in effect, joins those that we can temporarily now visit only with something like DMT?
 Or that the human race joins those who have passed over into the great beyond, or both.
 That's what I think it is.
 Are they one and the same in your view?
 They may be.
 I thought that these DMT creatures, what are they?
 And the conservative position, since we know there are human beings, is they must be some kind of human being.
 But what kind?
 And the only answer I can come up with is souls.
 I mean, I resisted this.
 But is it possible that shamans have been using plants to peer into the great beyond and that there is a kind of ecology of souls out there?
 When you ask the shaman, they say, "Well, you weren't listening.
 We told you we did it with ancestor magic."
 You say, "Oh, I get it. An ancestor. An ancestor is actually a dead person."
 Oh. Absolutely fascinating, Terrence.
 Listen to me.
 We're at the top of the hour.
 Go take a 10 or 12 minute break.
 And when we come back, we're going to talk about souls, because I've got some recent, really incredible news about souls.
 And you're just the right guy to comment on that.
 And don't worry, folks.
 We will get the lines open.
 Terrence, rest.
 Okay.
 All right.
 Terrence McKenna.
 Terrence McKenna.
 Wow.
 Is my guest.
 Are you listening?
 From the high desert, I'm Art Bell.
 And this is the independent and sometimes very strange but fascinating CBC Network.
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 Call Art Bell toll free.
 West of the Rockies at 1-800-618-8255. 1-800-618-8255.
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 This is the CBC Radio Network.
 It certainly is.
 And you know how I know when I've hit the mark?
 I begin getting about 25% of my faxes that say, "Well, this is the lowest point you've ever hit, Art.
 This is the worst you've ever done."
 And then the rest of them, the people that are really listening, say things like, "My God, this is brilliant.
 I've been waiting for this.
 Best show you've ever had."
 And it goes one way or the other.
 But I've learned over a period of time to kind of gauge the reaction about that way, and that's exactly what we're getting.
 What you're getting is something you've probably never heard before.
 And it's coming from a man named Terrence McKenna on the Big Island of Hawaii.
 If it rubs you the wrong way, you know where the dial is.
 If, on the other hand, you have the time to sit down and really listen to what's being said, not reacting like a Neanderthal with your head hitting the table,
 then you're going to come away from this thinking some new thoughts.
 And there's value in that.
 Back to Terrence shortly.
 All right, we are shortly going to go to the phone lines with Terrence McKenna.
 That should be an interesting adventure unto itself.
 But I want to ask you, Terrence, a little bit about souls.
 You mentioned souls, and so I have two questions.
 One is, there was a recent -- not recent, very old -- medical study in which a medical doctor actually endeavored to set out and prove,
 in days when it was politically okay to do this kind of thing, that the soul could actually be measured that at the very instant of human death --
 and he went through a whole big trip.
 I put the medical report up on my website.
 The human body loses about three-quarters of an ounce, and not due to gases or anything else you might imagine in your mind, no physical cause.
 All of that accounted for.
 And he printed and published this medical study suggesting the human body actually instantly, at the instant of death, loses three-quarters of an ounce of weight.
 Do you have any reaction to that?
 Well, looking at it through the eyes of novelty theory, I think nature is very reluctant to give up a complex ordered form once it's been achieved.
 I've noticed that the difference between living organisms and things like chairs and tables is the chairs and tables don't metabolize.
 In a sense, the soul is something which is manifest in time.
 It's almost as though organisms have a hyper-dimension.
 They're objects with time folded inside of them.
 And at death, what seems to happen is this complex morphogenetic field, if you will, simply withdraws back into whatever higher dimension it came from in the first place.
 It's not that it falls apart or dissolves.
 It's that it retracts from matter.
 It clothed itself with matter for some decades and now it's simply releasing its organizational power over matter.
 But it isn't being destroyed.
 I mean, that's my personal case.
 I absolutely agree with you.
 But by your description, it would suggest there could not be physical weight to it, or could there be?
 No, I think there could be.
 We don't know what it is or of what it consists.
 This is all, as you pointed out, because of social attitudes and different ideas of medical ethics, these areas are very, very difficult to get data on.
 All right.
 Next data point.
 I don't know up there on the mountain whether you've got television.
 Do you have television up there?
 Well, we have it, but we don't do much with it.
 You don't do much with it.
 All right.
 The New York Times recently, about a week ago, did a truly fascinating segment.
 Maybe you heard me talking about it on the program.
 Damn this thing.
 They followed a 57-year-old woman who received both a heart and lung transplant from a teenage boy.
 When she woke up from the operation, she had the immediate cravings -- I mean immediate cravings -- of a teenage boy.
 And if that's not enough for you, Terrence, she, of course, had no idea who the donor was,
 but she had a dream in one of the successive nights in which she dreamt the name of the donor.
 All of this was chronicled on 20/20.
 Now, again, it goes to the question of the nature of the soul, but, I mean, these are physical body parts.
 And the obvious implication here is that some essence of that boy was transferred to this woman.
 And it is not the only case of this.
 It has been noted again and again in transplant cases.
 What does that suggest?
 Well, you know, we have memories, and we've never located, though we believe they are in the brain,
 we've never proven or demonstrated that.
 My friend Rupert Sheldrake, the British physicist, he believes everything has a kind of memory -- objects, organs, ideologies --
 and that these things surround objects like auras and follow them through time.
 But you can't move a heart or an organ from one body to another without some of the, dare we say it, karma associated with it coming with it.
 I don't see how it could be any other way.
 Sure, we dare say that. No problem.
 And I think it's fascinating.
 So it, again, is really evidence of -- I don't know if I dare use the word "soul,"
 because I'm not sure that is the soul, but it certainly is some sort of transference that is occurring
 that indicates that maybe our soul or our being is in no central location, but rather a total part of us, yes?
 Yes, absolutely, yes.
 All right. I would like to begin taking some calls here and let them ask you some questions.
 First time caller on the line, you're on the air with Terrence McKenna in Hawaii.
 Yes, Terrence, I've got so many ideas I wanted to question you about, but I'll try to limit it.
 As far as souls go, would we agree that the electrochemical energy in the brain has to go somewhere after death?
 Yes, this is what we're saying, that in a sense it withdraws into what I call hyperspace.
 In a way, you could say the body is a lower dimensional sectioning of a higher dimensional object,
 which is the soul-body complex.
 On the other point I wanted to touch on, as far as your uniqueness curve,
 how do you account for the chaos theory that there are random particles in the universe
 affecting the interaction of particles that they come by?
 I will agree with you that nature as a large system is circular.
 It recirculates. I mean, there are cycles, but--
 I'm not sure that's what the time wave zero theory suggests at all.
 No, I think this word you introduced into the question, random,
 this word is a word out of probability theory and statistics.
 I mean, there may be random processes in the universe,
 but so far the only ones we've ever found were inside random number generators produced by mathematicians.
 In other words, it's a nice, simple supposition to suppose there are processes that can be described as random,
 but the more we look at nature, the more we find order.
 Chaos theory is misunderstood by a lot of people, too,
 as using the old notion of chaos as disorder.
 But what chaos for modern mathematicians is, is almost a super kind of order,
 a super-fecund medium out of which perturbations to higher states of order can spontaneously emerge.
 This is what Ilya Prigozhin and Ralph Abraham and all these people are talking about.
 I want to ask you something, Terence.
 I interviewed a scientist who now has a private company called Pair Inc.
 He produces, you may know about this, he produces a computer program in which you are able,
 which is a gigantic random number generator designed to run on a good, fast computer,
 and it enables you to pull down two pictures.
 For example, one of random, absolute noise on the left, and the other of, it wouldn't matter,
 the scene of a mountain or any other physical photograph that you might want to bring down.
 It gives you many choices.
 You put them side by side, Terence, and then you, the process of randomness will begin in the computer,
 and your job is to sit in front of the computer and to cause the random noise,
 well, you can do it either way, cause the random noise to disappear,
 bringing the picture into perfect clarity, resolution,
 or you can work on it the other way and try to cause the picture to be completely consumed by the random noise.
 And the suggestion is, and there is a rating given at each sitting,
 the suggestion, and apparently the proof is, that you, with your mind,
 are able to affect a rapidly generating random number sequence, generator, whatever,
 and by God, you can sit there and do it.
 Yes, there is a site on the web called the RetroPsychokinesis site,
 where they claim you not only can move these random number generators around,
 but you can move them around in the past.
 In the past?
 Yes, in other words, they invite you to, numbers are being flashed on the screen,
 they invite you to concentrate on the numbers being odd or even,
 and then they demonstrate that to a small percentage,
 people can actually push this in the direction they want it to go.
 So what does that suggest?
 It is really the same thing I described to you, just a different method, same thing though.
 Well, but then there is another wrinkle.
 They tell the people they are generating the numbers in real time,
 but they have actually made the tape three weeks before and put it in a vault,
 and the people are still able to push it the way they want.
 In other words, in some sense, they accomplished what they set out to do
 before they set out to accomplish it.
 Oh my.
 So yes, there is lots of this stuff being statistically studied,
 and it is very amenable to being demonstrated on the web.
 What it really brings, Art, is the sense that physics,
 which was the paradigmatic science in terms of rigor and reason,
 has just--the inmates have taken over the asylum,
 and the word hasn't reached biology yet.
 But that is a form of time travel to the past.
 I think what we are going to discover is that how you move around in time
 is not determined by the laws of physics, but determined by cultural programming,
 and that this is what is going to tear open shamanism and yoga
 and some of these other things.
 We are far more imprisoned by cultural convention than we are by physical law.
 All right, Terrence.
 Wild Card Line, you're on air with Terrence McKenna.
 Where are you, please?
 Good morning, Mr. Bell.
 This is Robert in the San Joaquin Valley in California.
 Yes, sir.
 Good morning.
 I have two questions.
 But, Mr. Bell, I'd like to say first,
 I heard earlier on the news that scientists have discovered a substance in cats' brains
 that enable them to--when they take catnaps, if you recall,
 when they wake up, it's instantaneous and they're very alert.
 They said that this will lead, within the next two to three years,
 a sleeping pill for humans without side effects,
 where when they wake up, they will wake up instantly and alert.
 And we shall call it the catnap pill.
 Fascinating.
 Yes, sir.
 All right.
 Yes, sir, Terrence, sir.
 Sure.
 Fascinating, sir.
 I'm really enjoying listening to you.
 I have two quick questions.
 The first one, for most of my life, I heard people say that everyone has dreams.
 I never, ever remembered, never recalled a dream.
 But about eight years ago, there was a scientific report that stated
 that there is approximately 5% of the population of people that do not have dreams.
 When I go to sleep, it's like a rock.
 And I wanted to mention that.
 And then I'll give you my second question.
 I'll listen to you.
 The little slice of death.
 Yes.
 Terrence?
 The last question, Mr. Bell, I had a guest, Ed Daines, remote viewer.
 Oh, yes.
 He mentioned in his remote viewing, he could not see beyond 2000, was it 12, Mr. Bell?
 Yes.
 Now, and Christians refer to the rapture.
 I'm just wondering what your take would be on all of this.
 All right, all right, all right.
 Very good.
 Both good questions.
 Let's tackle the easiest one first, dreams.
 I'm not aware of a study that suggests that 5% of the population doesn't dream.
 Most of the people I've talked to suggest that everybody dreams.
 Maybe 5% don't remember them.
 And we were talking about dreams earlier with respect to DMT.
 So could there be people, in your opinion, Terrence, who do not dream at all, therefore have no DMT spikes at all?
 Well, it's interesting.
 I would have thought, as you suggested, that everybody dreams, but some people don't remember it.
 But it is true that I would guess one in 20 people don't respond to DMT.
 This is very puzzling.
 They simply do not respond to it.
 And, of course, this has never been studied because it's an underground drug.
 But there may well be -- it may be that dreaming is something recently arriving in human evolution and not something we can just take for granted.
 So then are we to presume that those who do not dream have not sufficiently evolved?
 Well, I wouldn't put it that way.
 Too cruel, huh?
 You know, everybody has different genetic strengths and differences.
 Maybe they've got a hell of a back swing.
 I don't know.
 Or, to be fair, perhaps we could suggest they are the ones who have evolved past the need for it.
 I want to be kind to them, Terrence.
 All right.
 Hold on, Terrence.
 Rest.
 And when we come back, we'll tackle the second part of the question, which involves remote viewing in the realm in which that occurs.
 Fascinating stuff.
 Terrence McKenna, right back.
 This is CBZ.
 [Music]
 [Music]
 Art Bell is taking calls on the wildcard line at 702-727-1295.
 That's 702-727-1295.
 First-time callers can reach Art Bell at 702-727-1222.
 702-727-1222.
 Now, here again, Art Bell.
 Once again, here I am.
 Good morning.
 Terrence McKenna is my guest.
 Oh, what a wide variety of reactions, indeed, we're receiving.
 To some, Terrence is a heretic.
 He's dabbling in the black arts, witchcraft, magic, perhaps even the Antichrist.
 To others, this kind of reaction, Art, I'm a computer artist programmer.
 Consider myself a very intelligent person.
 I've been listening with absolute fascination, I think, that your guest is right on the mark.
 It explains everything very succinctly.
 It's brilliant, period.
 That's Dave in Milwaukee.
 And we'll get back to Terrence in a moment.
 [Music]
 Call Art Bell toll-free.
 West of the Rockies at 1-800-618-8255.
 1-800-618-8255.
 East of the Rockies at 1-800-825-5033.
 1-800-825-5033.
 This is the CBC Radio Network.
 That's who we are.
 Just a quick promo.
 Tomorrow night, Sean Morton at 11 o'clock.
 Then, at midnight, Victor.
 And Victor will be using a voice-changing device and describing his experience at Area 51 during the alien interrogation.
 We have a worldwide exclusive on my website right now.
 A second photograph, the second photograph, of the alien interrogation.
 Whitley Streber and a few other select people have seen the entire thing with great emotional reaction.
 But tomorrow night, you will hear Victor for an hour at midnight Pacific.
 He will then be followed by Sean David Morton.
 It should be quite an evening.
 For now, and by the way, that photograph, you really should see it between now and tomorrow.
 Don't miss it. www.artbell.com.
 And as you listen to Terrence McKenna this night,
 also know that if you go there, there is a link to the website where you can find materials on Terrence McKenna.
 Terrence, here we are once again.
 Are you there?
 I am.
 All right.
 You're going to get a lot of web hits from this.
 I hope your server can hold up.
 So, levity is very together.
 I think they can handle it.
 Good.
 We'll find out, won't we?
 Yeah, we'll find out.
 That's right.
 Wildcard Line, you're on the air with Terrence McKenna.
 Where are you, please?
 This is Tony.
 Yes, Tony.
 Good morning, Art and Terrence.
 How are you?
 Good.
 How are you?
 I'm doing pretty good.
 I want to ask you a couple of questions.
 Do you think the reason why people generally, like remote viewers, for instance,
 lose credibility is because, like psychics, they have a distasteful track record
 and don't predict stuff like the Oklahoma bombing or a bank robbery before it happens?
 And do you think that time machines can be -- the possibility of the future of time machines might have something to do
 with something that's very normal in nature, such as extreme shockwave technology
 and just normal physical things that happen generally in the mainstream physics that will create synthetic time travel reality?
 Well, I don't know from what direction time travel is going to come.
 It used to be completely unrespectable to discuss it in the scientific literature.
 And if you run literature searches now, you'll see over the past 10 years,
 this has gone from unmentionable to quite respectable.
 There's a book called Time Travel in Physics and Science Fiction by Nabum
 that will definitely bring you up to speed on the many, many approaches to time travel.
 It's been known since 1948 there was a paper by Kurt Gödel with a scheme for time travel that would work.
 It simply requires that you spin a cylinder half the size of the solar system at the speed of light.
 But everybody agrees if you could do that and then travel along its transverse axis,
 you would be moved backward into time.
 So in the sort of in the way we started out with vacuum tubes and now go to the Pentium,
 we have now very rude Goldberg approaches to time travel.
 But I'm sure by 2012, we will have brought this to a kind of perfection.
 And do you do you suspect, Terrence, that time travel will manifest itself from the physical,
 from physics or the time travel will be manifested from within?
 I think we're going to find a way basically to obliterate the difference.
 You know, it's only been 500 years since some Europeans sailed over the horizon
 and found the lost half of this planet.
 That's right.
 I think the human imagination is as solid as the real estate you're standing on, Art,
 and that when this is understood, there will be a kind of migration into the human imagination.
 And that this is, you know, time travel, space flight, immortality.
 We have these terms for these things.
 But what is really coming is going to be all this and more.
 Our way of talking about it is inevitably incredibly quaint
 because we talk about it inside the very culture it's going to make obsolete.
 It sure would do that.
 Terrence, a lighter question.
 This comes from my wife at the beginning of the program.
 She knew that you were the one to follow on in Timothy Leary's footsteps,
 and so she thought she would ask you.
 It is rumored, or it is perhaps a legend,
 that Timothy had squirreled away like a treasure trove at some secret location,
 25,000 hits of Blue Sandoz.
 Where is it?
 Do you know where it is?
 My goodness, Art, your wife follows these things.
 [Laughter]
 Where is the Blue Sandoz?
 That's right.
 Where is the X mark on the map?
 Have you got the map?
 Well, my lips are sealed.
 When they open the tombs on Cydonia, I'll issue a press statement.
 All right.
 We'll leave it right there.
 West of the Rockies, you're on the air with Terrence McKenna.
 Hello.
 Hello.
 Hello.
 Hi.
 Where are you, sir?
 I am in San Francisco.
 My name is Ryan.
 All right, Ryan.
 It is great to talk to both of you.
 I am of the belief that there are two types of people in the world, basically,
 like people who have had psychedelic experiences, people who haven't,
 and the vast difference in their ways of thinking once they have had a psychedelic experience.
 That's why it's illegal.
 Yes.
 What is the direction?
 I wanted to ask Terrence that he sees this state now where it is illegal
 and why it is keeping, I think, our civilization down to its dreadful state.
 I think that if it could be, like through mass awareness somehow,
 like get--I don't know, I just wish it could be legal so people, I think,
 could go to the next level that we are coming to so fast with the--
 I don't know, like things speeding up.
 I mean, everybody feels it, I believe, everybody that I know.
 Did you say next level?
 Yes.
 You are calling from San Francisco, not Rancho Santa Fe, right?
 Yes, exactly.
 Yes.
 Let me say this.
 I mean, I am a bit of a pessimist on this subject because I take psychedelics so seriously.
 I can't imagine them ever being really legal unless there is a total social transformation
 because my analysis of it is the reason everybody from a Marxist state to a Christian oligarchy
 to a high-tech industrial democracy can get together and agree that psychedelics are a terrible, terrible thing
 is because the social effect of psychedelics being taken by large numbers of people
 is a kind of deconditioning from the cultural myth, whatever they are.
 It is no knock on any given society.
 It is just that if people start taking psychedelics,
 they start questioning what they have been told about reality.
 And culture is in the business of keeping you inside a set of predetermined answers to those questions.
 Well, based on that then, Terrence, perhaps Legalization Day is 2012.
 Well, there you go, Art.
 There is an apocalypse that would shake our world and leave the heavens intact.
 That day the drug war ends.
 First time caller on the line, you are on the air with Terrence McKenna on the Big Island of Hawaii.
 Hello.
 Hi, Art.
 Hi, where are you?
 I actually am also from San Francisco.
 Okay.
 So it seems to be San Francisco night for the last two calls.
 Well, I am not surprised.
 Nor am I.
 Anyway, I just wanted to tell you up front, I am a professional stand-up comedian
 and I guess sort of in the vein of Lenny Bruce.
 So I do a lot of research and I have read a lot of your writings, Mr. McKenna,
 about the archaic revival, invisible landscape, and also the CD that you have that you did with Space Time Continuum.
 Oh, yeah, the alien dream time.
 Yeah, which was very fun.
 I am also familiar with Mr. Sheldrake's writings as well.
 And I would say to the 25% dissenter faxes that you have been receiving, Art,
 that they are probably saying that because they are not familiar with a lot of what Mr. McKenna is saying.
 Well, and a lot of them never will be.
 It will go right past them and they hear one thing only and they see devils.
 Right.
 And, you know, that is okay.
 Right.
 Actually, in relation to what you are saying there, I would say that the gentleman who considered Mr. McKenna to be in league with Satan,
 that the truth does not have an ideological agenda or anything like that whatsoever.
 My question to you is, you are familiar with the writings of John Lilly.
 Sure.
 In my neighborhood there is actually an isolation tank center and I regularly go down there with mushrooms
 and I will hop into the tank while I am doing mushrooms and whatnot.
 I am very fascinated by your writings on DMT and what I would like to know is,
 how would I be able to locate DMT or the plant that it comes from?
 I don't know that we can tell that on the air.
 Well, we can say something.
 We have already said it is right behind your eyebrows.
 Right.
 That is one thing.
 The other thing is, the real practical answer is go to the Internet in terms of if you want to locate plants in your ecosystem.
 There you go.
 There is vast discussion of this and incredible enthusiastic communities.
 But as Art says, we have already pushed the envelope.
 I don't think we can start peddling Schedule 1 substances on the air, nor would we wish to.
 Nor would you want me to, sir, because then you might not hear me anymore.
 However, it is on the Internet.
 Look, it is a lot less dangerous than a lot of the other crap on the Internet, building missiles and bombs and all the rest of that.
 Can I ask you this?
 Use a search engine.
 Right.
 All right?
 All right.
 Thanks a lot.
 That is what they are there for.
 Wild Card Line, you are on the air with Terrence McKenna.
 Hello.
 Wow, I actually got through.
 Yes, sir, it seems that way.
 Where are you?
 I am in Madison, Wisconsin.
 All right.
 Go right ahead.
 That is hot.
 First of all, Art, I just wanted to say about a year ago I talked to you and you were telling me that I was doing myself a lot of harm by using psychedelics.
 I think Terrence is just good proof that someone can turn out all right.
 No, I didn't tell you that.
 I didn't tell you you were doing yourself a lot of harm.
 I thought you did.
 No.
 No.
 I wouldn't make that judgment.
 That is something that only you can conclude.
 I see.
 But also, I want to make a suggestion for a guest.
 I think Terrence might be familiar with him, but have you ever heard of Douglas Rushkoff?
 Oh, yes.
 I know Doug.
 Yes.
 Yes.
 I have read many of his books.
 Just what he needs, more publicity.
 I think he is just a great guy.
 All right.
 Anything else?
 Yes.
 Terrence, I have a video called Alien Dream Time.
 Yes.
 I just want to say I really like it.
 Oh, yes.
 Well, that is a thing I did a few years ago with a band called Space Time Continuum.
 Yes.
 What was the essence of it, Terrence?
 Well, it was a rave in San Francisco and I talked about, if you can imagine this, I talked
 about the impact of psilocybin on human evolution to a backbeat.
 This is something we have not gotten into here, Art, but I have a whole other rap on
 how mushrooms actually impacted and caused the breakthrough to self-reflecting human
 consciousness.
 We will have to save that one for another time.
 I guess so.
 Interesting.
 East of the Rockies, you are on the air with Terrence McKenna.
 Good morning.
 Good morning.
 This is Larry in Peoria, Illinois.
 Hi, Larry.
 This is really very interesting because I just recently read some of the excerpts from The
 Psychedelic Experience by Timothy Leary, which is his take on the Tibetan Book of the Dead.
 I missed the first part of the show, so I am sorry if this has already been talked about,
 but I was wondering what is basically the difference between DMT and LSD?
 Good question.
 Well, LSD lasts hours and hours and tends to be, I think my own phrase is, abrasively
 psychoanalytic.
 Essentially, I think LSD does what most people think psychedelic drugs do.
 They cause you to review past memories, they cause you to see your life in a different
 light, and so forth and so on.
 DMT is not like that.
 It seems to go beyond the personal dimension.
 It doesn't matter, I think, who you are or where you started from.
 It carries you into its own world, a world that is alien on its own terms and doesn't
 have a lot of information in it about your psychology or your dilemmas.
 So it is less useful for psychoanalysis and more useful for exploring what I consider
 to be pretty dramatic paranormal dimensions, considering they are so easily accessed.
 You are speaking about, it is interesting all this talk about dimensions and going to
 the next level.
 I just had a psychedelic experience recently when I had a meditation on the nature of the
 universe as being like a geometric structure that is so immensely more vast and diverse
 than you can really explain.
 Well, I think there is the vastness of space and time that we know about, but then as we
 look into the micro dimension and we see how much there is in the atomic and subatomic
 world, I mean the world is an amazing and dynamic place.
 This is why I am so down on ideologies, because I think they are dusty mirrors to hold up
 to the splendor of the felt presence of the living universe.
 Here is a, I believe, McKenna quote, "Western civilization is a loaded gun pointed at the
 head of this planet."
 Yep.
 Yep.
 Western civilization is a loaded gun pointed at the head of this planet.
 What I think I was referring to there was resource extraction, propaganda, pollution
 of the atmosphere and this sort of thing.
 If we continue to practice our cultural values as we have practiced them over the next thousand
 years, we are going to make the earth unfit for our children, which is a sin and a tragedy
 of such magnitude we don't even have a name for it.
 Boy, I sure agree with that.
 And then this, a quote, "LSD is a drug that occasionally causes psychotic behavior in
 persons that have not taken it."
 Terrence McKenna quoting Tim Leary in Los Angeles in 1991.
 Accurate?
 Well, I tried to give that quote to Tim and he swore to me he'd never said that, so it's
 sort of hanging out there in the air, but it's a very funny quote because I think it
 makes clear to people how agitated you can become by drugs you haven't taken and how
 often the people who have the most negative drug reactions are the people who didn't take
 the drug.
 You are a heretic.
 And just one last as we head toward the bottom of the hour.
 The mind rests on a foundation of chemical machinery.
 Yes.
 It rests on a foundation of chemical machinery.
 It is not simply the product of chemical machinery any more than I am an automobile when I drive
 it.
 All right, well, rest your chemical machine for a moment and we'll come right back.
 Terrence McKenna from the Big Island of Hawaii is my guest.
 We've got 30 more.
 If you've got a question, we've got phone lines.
 I'm Art Bell and this is CBC.
 [Music]
 [Music]
 [Music]
 Art Bell is taking calls on the wildcard line at 702-727-1295.
 That's 702-727-1295.
 First time callers can reach Art Bell at 702-727-1222.
 702-727-1222.
 Now, here again, Art Bell.
 Good morning.
 [Music]
 I've always been so in love with that.
 All right, Terrence McKenna, back in a moment.
 My guest is Terrence McKenna.
 Terrence, again, with respect to Timothy, he, of course, as you well know, has been
 launched into orbit with a number of other notables.
 And I was just wondering, again, referencing that 25,000 hits of Blue Santos, do you suppose
 it's possible that Timothy had them launched with himself and that orbital decay will provide
 one great last acid rain at about 2012?
 Well, he did want to prove that you can take it with you.
 [Laughter]
 All right, first time caller on the line, you're on the air with Terrence McKenna.
 Hello.
 Hi there.
 Hi, where are you?
 I'm in Nanaimo, BC.
 British Columbia, all right.
 Yeah.
 I first discovered you, Art, about three years ago, and I was getting you very faintly at
 night from KEX in Oregon.
 Yes.
 And now we've got you on C-FUN in Vancouver, and we're all real happy about it.
 Thank you.
 You keep us up all night.
 So, Terrence, I've read, I think, all of your books, if not most of them, and in "True
 Hallucinations," there's a part where you have a mushroom in the hut with you and your
 brother, and he makes a sound that you describe, but I think nobody else, unless we were there,
 we wouldn't understand the sound, makes the mushroom glow or appear to.
 And you were speaking before about human consciousness interacting through resonance with the universe
 around us.
 And I wonder if you could sort of explain how those two things tie in, and in doing
 so, I'd like to ask you if you've read "The Holographic Universe" by Michael Talbott.
 I have read "The Holographic Universe."
 He was a friend of mine.
 He unfortunately died a few years ago.
 Oh.
 Resonance is the principle, almost magical, of action at a distance.
 You know, you can play a certain open note on the cello, and the piano, 50 feet across
 the room, will sound in the same octave.
 So resonance, we know it exists.
 It's a musical phenomenon, but what we need to realize, I think, is that resonance is
 built into time.
 Time, in a sense, you could say a given moment in time is a kind of hologrammatic interference
 pattern of past times, and I consider those past times to be in resonance.
 So one of the things Art and I haven't discussed tonight about my time wave is that it does
 allow you to look at a certain period of time and decide what it was in resonance with in
 the past, and those past epochs that are influencing it, then their influence can be seen in popular
 fads, furniture styles, what movies are up, that sort of thing.
 Now, with the DMT, you say it's produced in our bodies.
 It is.
 Can the DMT molecule in the brain change our electron spin resonance in the molecules in
 our brain, and can that possibly make our brain act as an antenna that allows us to
 see all those other things that you're talking about?
 Well, these are the kinds of ideas that my brother and I were playing with clear back
 in the early 70s, and one of the tragedies of the repression of psychedelics is not that
 they were taken out of the hands of the curious public, but that they were made off limits
 to scientific research.
 Not that anybody put up a sign, but it was very clearly understood that pharmacologists
 who specialized in psychedelics could expect to be passed over, not promoted, not given
 the plum jobs.
 I could spiel off a dozen questions, very interesting central questions about the mechanism
 of psychedelics that we could answer with ordinary clinical studies.
 It's simply that how do you do ordinary clinical studies on substances that the government
 has made illegal?
 It's impossible.
 Of course you don't.
 Wild Card Line, you're on the air with Terrence McKenna.
 Hi.
 Wow, this is a very serendipitous meeting.
 I play around with a lot of EEG for the last few years, and I find that I do serendipitous
 things, but unplanned.
 Hey, thanks Art.
 Sure.
 What do you think, well there was one physicist, I can't think of his name, he describes time
 as nature's way of keeping things from happening all at once.
 That's exactly what Terrence just said we're going to come to at the zero point 2012.
 Yeah, well I wanted to get back into a little bit of physics, but almost cosmic physics,
 having to do with black holes.
 Okay.
 And I wanted to ask you how you felt about the black hole being nature's way of, well
 the ultimate recycling device in the universe.
 Well, it certainly is this.
 Anything which falls into a black hole is deconstructed down to spin and angular momentum,
 and I think all other information is stripped out of it.
 I think, you know, if there can be gravitational wells like that, then there can also be the
 kind of novelty wells that I'm suggesting.
 In other words...
 Novelty wells?
 Well, if statistical probability is not a very clear way of looking at the universe,
 if in fact probabilities vary through space and time of any given event,
 then there will be areas of extremely high improbability and conversely probability.
 So, I think we've got to get past this idea of time as a smooth surface,
 and begin to think of it as a kind of landscape,
 a place where some things are more probable in some places,
 and some things more probable in others.
 You know, you look for water in the bottom of the valley, you look for glaciers up on the slopes.
 I think time has a topography.
 It is a topological surface of some sort,
 and science in the West has just completely sailed past all this.
 Well, how is it described?
 Well, I don't want to make a long thing out of this, but...
 Well, in Newton it's described as pure duration, in other words, perfect flatness.
 Then Einstein comes along and he says,
 "Well, no, in the presence of massive gravitational objects,
 space-time has a very smooth and slight curvature."
 What I'm saying is that even at local scales, time is variable,
 and that when we explode time at any scale,
 we discover the same fractal patterns as we're seeing on scales far above and far below it.
 So, really, the...
 Or far in and far out of it, too.
 Far in it and far out of it.
 So, really, what it is is it's like a Fourier transform or something like that.
 It's a holographic matrix that is self-similar on many scales.
 The organization of a galaxy, the organization of an atom,
 these things, in my theory, are morphologically linked.
 They look that way because they are linked across scale and across space and time
 by an underlying architecture of the universe.
 You know, there's a big mystery now in cosmology, the dark matter mystery.
 Where is 90% of the matter?
 For the galaxies to be hanging together under the laws of gravity, 90% of them must be missing.
 Well, I say there's no missing matter.
 What's missing here are some laws, and the laws of missing...
 Well, could it be consciousness itself?
 Well, it's this appetite for complexity that every particle in the universe participates in this.
 The galaxies hang together as spirals because it's the more novel thing to do,
 not because they are under the control of gravity,
 but because there is a cosmic law of aggregation toward novelty that we've missed.
 Would the Fourier be a way of measuring that, say, with Fourier measurement of the brain itself or EEG?
 Well, you could measure it in a Fourier matrix.
 You could measure it in many different kinds of matrices.
 The point is to demonstrate it to somebody outside the system who's looking at it.
 I think the breakthrough, the great breakthrough in mathematical modeling of nature in the last 20 years
 has been the discovery of fractals and self-similarity on many scales, and this is part of that.
 What I'm saying, really, is that time is a fractal structure.
 It can be defined by a limited set of variables and then iterated on the micro scale, the macro scale, the human scale.
 They're all operating under the same architectural constraints but at different scales.
 When I talk to my friends in the EEG world, I do a lot of EEG spectral analysis and stuff, they think I'm nuts.
 Well, you're thought not to be.
 I say, well, if you want to buy my machine and operate, this is how the universe is.
 And when I speak in these terms, it's like I'm in a big hall, you know, empty room.
 Well, there's a lot of confusion in the sciences right now.
 The complexity people are not talking to the dynamics people.
 The poor materialists have all been crowded into biology.
 Meanwhile, over in quantum physics, they're talking like a cultist.
 And none of the news has reached psychology and sociology yet.
 The house of science is in incredible disarray, and it's because sciences wish to describe nature.
 We're now dispensed with all the easy stuff.
 Now we're asking questions like, what is language?
 What is mind?
 What is process?
 These are very deep and difficult questions, and I think they're going to cause a revolution in the science
 and a reformation of its methods, or science is not going to be adequate to the game.
 Well, perhaps after some period of anarchy.
 Yes, well, that's what we're going through.
 East of the Rockies, you're on the air with Terrence McKenna.
 Hello.
 Hello there.
 Hi.
 Hi.
 Hi, I just want to start by saying thanks, and I wanted to say it's an honor to speak to Terrence.
 I'm a big admirer.
 Where are you, sir?
 I'm in St. Louis.
 My name is Alex.
 I'm 21 in St. Louis, Missouri.
 All right.
 Okay, and I wanted to start by actually commenting on a couple of things that have been said earlier this evening.
 One, I'm looking really forward to 2012, and I'm looking really forward to being part of human evolution
 and being in control of that, really.
 I wanted to say about the throwing out of the rocks that it seems kind of like God has already thrown out the rocks on this planet,
 and that is plenty as is.
 That is the way things are, and that's the planet as we have it, and that should be plenty of knowledge as is for us to understand everything.
 I've had some experience with psychedelics, and I'm not finished yet.
 Far from, actually.
 But the truth to it is that my own personal belief is that you achieve true enlightenment after being sober and meditating
 and sobriety and getting inside yourself.
 The truth is not outside; it's inside.
 That's a very interesting point.
 Terrence, let me ask you a question.
 Contemplate the possibility that your trip will be complete before 2012, in other words, your personal trip,
 that you will conclude at some point that you've done as much as you need to do and know what you need to know
 and don't need to do it anymore.
 I can imagine that.
 I can imagine that.
 What I would like to do is take my ideas and turn them over to a general community of interested people
 and let the chips fall where they may.
 You know, science is the only human endeavor where you actually get points for proving you're wrong,
 and I love that approach.
 I'm not interested in pontificating or building dogma or founding a cult.
 I'm interested in the ongoing adventure, which is a collective adventure, of generating ideas,
 testing them against reality and the evidence, discussing them with other people,
 and then going on to build better ideas.
 I cannot believe that TimeWave Zero is finished or complete because I have finished with it.
 I'm hoping that like work done by greats in the past, this thing can actually be validated as a real insight into how nature works.
 Right. Well, that would have been an arrogant attitude, and I'm glad to see you're not displaying it.
 Yes. I would like to see this thing broken on the wheel of rational discourse or progressively advanced to new level.
 All right. West of the Rockies, without a lot of time left, you're on the air with Terrence McKenna.
 Hello. Hi. This is Dan from Northern California.
 Hi, Dan. Hi. Quick question, Terrence.
 In your book, Food of the Gods, you talked about early proto-hominids encountering psychotropic plants,
 I guess psilocybin, and that being sort of the catalyst for this incredible leap of human consciousness.
 What about the next step in our evolution?
 Do you see it coming through some sort of psychoactive substance that we either have yet to develop or encounter?
 Well, I think that we have encountered these things.
 I think the enormous creativity of the last half of the 20th century is a direct consequence of the rise of psychedelic chemistry
 and the breakdown of barriers between cultures.
 In other words, most of the people designing and building the Internet have psychedelics in their path.
 Most of the people in the music business, in fashion, in media, in scientific research, medical research, architecture,
 the dirty little secret about the creativity of 20th century civilization, at least in the last half of the 20th century,
 is that it rests so firmly on a psychedelic base, and yet we deny that.
 I've got one final question I've got to pose to you with regard to our discussion on the Internet.
 I interviewed Charles Ostman, an expert in nanotechnology.
 He predicts that within the next few years, or even less, we will begin to encounter sentient entities within the Internet.
 Artificial intelligences, I believe that will happen.
 Hans Moravec has written a lot about this.
 He would be a guy for your show, Art.
 He's talked about how these AIs, these artificial intelligences, they learn 50,000 times faster than a human being.
 Well, you turn one loose on the Internet, where it can talk to all these computers, it can make 50,000 years of progress in one year.
 Moravec thinks we're not even going to know what hit us when these things come into being.
 Listen, time as we must measure it is coming to a close.
 How many books have you written?
 Five or six.
 Invisible Landscape, Food of the Gods, Magic Mushroom Growers Guide, True Hallucinations, Archaic Revival, on and on.
 Where do people get these, regular bookstores?
 Oh yeah, they're Bantam and HarperCollins, so any decent bookstore can have them or can order them.
 All right, suppose somebody would like to send you email on the Internet.
 Now, be careful here.
 Okay, here it comes, hce@well.com.
 That's hce, thank you, here comes everybody, @well.com.
 hce@well.com.
 Right.
 That's so appropriate.
 Here comes everybody indeed.
 Are you able to answer the majority of the communications?
 I try.
 It may be short.
 I'm getting about 70 email messages a day.
 What you're going to do to me, Art, I can't even imagine.
 But I will make a valiant try, a concise count.
 All right, it does indeed, and people should understand that with the volume you're about to get, it may be brief.
 Terrence, what a pleasure it has been.
 Again, we will do it someday.
 If they don't toss you into the volcano first, we'll do another interview one day.
 How about it?
 Well, I'm worried they may toss you after this one, but if you're there, I'll be here.
 All right, Terrence, done.
 Okay.
 Thank you, my friend.
 Bye-bye.
 Take care.
 From the big island of Hawaii, he's headed back up to his mountain.
 And me, I may be headed for the volcano.
 Who knows?
 That's hce@well.com.
 [Music]
 This is the American Independent CBC Radio Network.
 We'll be right back.
 [Music]
 [Music]
 [Music]
 Call Art Bell toll-free, west of the Rockies at 1-800-618-8255.
 1-800-618-8255.
 East of the Rockies at 1-800-825-5033.
 1-800-825-5033.
 This is the CBC Radio Network.
 All right, unregulated anarchy to follow.
 In other words, open lines coming up.
 I'm Art Bell, and I know that you're going to have some reaction to the last four hours.
 All kinds of reaction.
 [Laughter]
 We'll dive in in a moment.
 All right, well, that earned it.
 In answer to a question just posed to me in a chat room, is it Art or Ramona, it's Art.
 And, yes, I am in a chat room right now on America Online.
 And you're welcome to join us.
 Welcome to join us.
 You just get on AOL and then enter a keyword, Art Bell.
 Go click on keyword and type in Art Bell.
 It'll take you to the Periscope area.
 And when you get in there, click on the grassy knoll chat room, and, boosh,
 you will be in there with other anarchistically bent people, including myself.
 West of the Rockies, you're on the air.
 Hello there.
 Hi, Art. How are you doing?
 I'm doing.
 This is Aubrey from San Diego.
 Yes, sir.
 I didn't get a chance to get through earlier.
 I just wanted to relate an experience I had at one time using a hallucinogen.
 Just during total concentration, I began to imagine molecules in the body,
 how they're circles and how they circle each other.
 And from that, I went out to a planetary scale, how this moon circles the earth
 and the earth circles the sun.
 And it went on and on.
 And I realized that--or I felt that circles were the key somehow to everything,
 the universe and everything.
 And I had that confirmed one time watching a program about bees
 and how bees, when they build their hives, they build them in--well, they're hex-shaped,
 but hexes are just circles attached to each other.
 Did you know, sir, that--let me see here.
 Let me do this.
 Did you know that about 25--excuse me, about 95% of all the honeybees in the world are gone?
 I wasn't aware of that.
 Give that one a little bit of thought in view of what you said, because that is a true fact.
 Gone.
 East of the Rockies, you are on the air.
 Good morning.
 Yes, this is Don from Pekin, Illinois.
 Hi, Don.
 Yeah, I think your guest is playing with fire and he's going to get burnt.
 The devil stuff, right?
 Well, yeah, it's because I think that what it's called is a pharma--
 and it's basically taking mind-altering drugs.
 That's what he's doing.
 I mean, there's no question about it.
 That's what he's doing.
 And you try to conjure up demonic forces.
 Well, now, wait a minute.
 I don't know that I agree with that.
 In other words, we can have an argument about consuming pharmaceuticals of the sort discussed.
 But I don't think that it automatically translates to the conjuring of demonic forces.
 That comes from you or Terrence or whoever does it.
 I don't think there's a given that when you do one, you're doing the other.
 Well, I'd just like to say--
 That is not to condone it.
 Yeah, okay.
 I just want to say that his idea and also the remote viewer's idea of this thing about this new age coming in 2012 or whatever, it's bunk.
 Do you?
 I just think it's bunk.
 Really?
 And if somebody came on and said that a very religious person were to come on
 and to say the Lord is going to return in 2012, would you be calling and saying, "What, bunk?"
 Yes, I would, because no man knows that day and hour.
 Well, so it is written.
 Look, I respect your view and your faith, and I don't wish to tangle with it.
 I asked you a question.
 You answered it fairly.
 I don't tangle with anybody's faith, and you certainly are welcome to yours.
 And I suggest you hold it dear.
 That may surprise you, or it may appear to you to exhibit too much tolerance.
 I really don't know, but I don't have a problem with your faith.
 And I'm sorry you have a problem when you listen to ideas that offend your faith.
 If it is unshakable, then surely it is not so easily crumbled.
 West of the Rockies, you're on the air.
 Hi.
 Hi.
 Hello.
 How are you?
 How am I?
 You're doing reasonably well.
 I'm doing reasonably well, I guess.
 I'll catch the rest of it when it comes around at 3 o'clock.
 Yeah.
 I'm calling from Fairbanks.
 Fairbanks, Alaska.
 Yeah.
 It's about 45 degrees in Fairbanks.
 Is it really?
 Yes.
 When you come to Alaska, don't forget to pack your mosquito repellent.
 Yeah.
 I know that during the summer, they have mosquitoes--
 They're out already.
 They actually have mosquitoes that rival some small model planes.
 Yeah.
 They eat birds.
 Yeah, birds, right.
 [Laughter]
 You're exactly right, and I'll bear that in mind.
 Anything else?
 Yeah.
 I didn't get the show the other night at the time it was going on.
 Was it "Lady on the Pet Food"?
 Oh, my.
 That was quite an interesting show.
 Right.
 But I can report that in Fairbanks, at least the veterinary clinic that I deal with,
 the animals go to the Borough Animal Shelter for cremation.
 Well, I'll tell you one thing.
 That I know for a fact because the vet has told me.
 And secondly--
 Well, that's right.
 You want to ask.
 I think everybody needs to know you should ask.
 The animal shelter takes the crematory, heats the building,
 goes into a heat pump under the building, and that's what heats the animal shelter.
 All right.
 I appreciate it.
 Oh, that's what heats.
 So they use it as fuel, huh?
 Great.
 What else do you think?
 I think I prefer that disposal method certainly to the one described the other night.
 In other words, recirculation.
 In other words, cannibalism.
 But, you know, I really don't want to get back into that right now.
 I'm going to try and avoid that.
 That was rough to do.
 First time caller on the line, you're on the air.
 Hi.
 Hi, yes, this is Dave from Tracy, California.
 Hello, Dave.
 Hi, I was listening to the show and I knew it was a great show.
 Thank you.
 And I was wondering if, you know, I'm kind of looking at it as far as other life being out there.
 Does this necessarily mean that maybe, you know, with the NASA and the new discoveries being made,
 would this, you know, basically know the thought that there is other life out there or are we just, you know.
 Not at all.
 This is all.
 No, not at all.
 Okay, great.
 Yeah, because I've been reading a lot of things as far as life living in, you know, deep in the ocean without direct, you know, sunlight.
 We already know it exists.
 Yeah.
 We've already made a lot of that of volcanic venting.
 It exists on the energy given by volcanic venting.
 So I'm thinking, you know, with the Europa, the moon near Europa, there's probably life like NASA says,
 and I'm not sure if they admit to it, but, you know, billions of planets could sustain life throughout the universe.
 And I think that, I don't know, maybe this 2012, it just might be an enlightenment to where we move to.
 Well, let me ask you a question, sir.
 Yeah.
 Who do you think is more likely to get there first, Terrence McKenna or NASA?
 I would have to say that Terrence McKenna in the public view, but as far as NASA goes.
 That's actually quite a serious question.
 Yeah, well, I think NASA knows quite a bit more than what they do tell us.
 And I think that just goes to show, you know, that they're letting out.
 Yeah, maybe we've been asking NASA the wrong questions.
 Well, yeah, that could be.
 And like I say, you know, I'm sure they, you know, back in the '70s when they looked at the face on Mars,
 you know, that's just scientific curiosity has to take you from there,
 even if you don't believe that it is a face on Mars or something.
 You still have to wonder, you know, without a better picture, you know, what is it?
 I appreciate your comments, sir.
 Thank you.
 Well, the rest of you, who do you think is more likely to get there first, the Terrence McKenna's or the NASA people?
 That's like, well, I don't think I need to explain that question.
 Wildcard line, you're on the air.
 Good morning.
 There she is.
 How come you always say that?
 I don't know.
 I guess it's like a knee-jerk reaction.
 Okay.
 A pagan?
 Or didn't you tell me that you were Irish?
 English, Irish, French, Indian.
 Celtic.
 You have a Celtic background?
 Yeah.
 Your ancestors, before Christianity came to Europe, were pagans.
 Probably.
 The old religion that was in place--
 I'm not insulted by that.
 Oh, no.
 I consider you one of us now.
 I don't know what my ancestors did.
 Well, I do, because I looked it up.
 And the old religion that they practiced is the one that we practice in my household.
 And that is a pagan.
 You asked me.
 I had to think about it.
 Nobody's ever asked me before.
 So you thought about it, and now you have subscribed to it.
 No.
 I have always subscribed to it.
 I've never really put it into words.
 So you thought about my words, and you have subscribed to them.
 No.
 I thought about your words, and I came up with the definition.
 Which you consider to be accurate and describes you.
 No.
 I just made it up for you.
 Well, then, what do you mean you made it up for me?
 You made it up to please me?
 No, I made it up because you asked me a question, and I wanted to give you an answer.
 Well, I thought you just did, and it was affirmative, confirming that you say, yes, you are a pagan.
 Yes.
 So what part of this have I not understood correctly?
 In other words, you--
 You asked me what a pagan was.
 Uh-huh.
 And then now, today, you're coming and you're saying I am, indeed.
 Right.
 Are you not?
 Mm-hmm.
 Listen.
 Let it go.
 My ancestors also used a 13-month lunar calendar.
 That's true.
 Yeah.
 And it's very interesting.
 Each month, they ascribe a tree to it, and so I looked yours up.
 And?
 It's no surprise that you are the oak, the mighty oak.
 But listen.
 In the personality profile, the first line was, "The person who is born in the month
 of the oak is inclined to tell the truth without any regard to the consequences."
 Yeah, that's me already.
 I know it's you.
 I know I thought, "That is so you."
 It is.
 It is.
 You're exactly right.
 Thanks.
 It's true.
 I really don't care.
 I mean, I would just as soon be able to do whatever comes up and seems logical to do next, or
 not do it, if you follow me.
 Oh, west of the Rockies, you're on the air.
 Hi.
 Hi, Art.
 This is John from Bonny Lake.
 Hello, John.
 Washington.
 Yeah.
 Yes.
 Well, I just wanted to mention, you know, that the Bible says, "The one who is born
 in the month of the oak is inclined to tell the truth without any regard to the consequences."
 And I'm not saying that you're wrong.
 I'm just saying that you're right.
 I'm not saying that you're wrong.
 I'm just saying that you're right.
 I'm not saying that you're wrong.
 I'm just saying that you're right.
 I'm not saying that you're wrong.
 I'm just saying that you're right.
 I'm not saying that you're wrong.
 I'm just saying that you're right.
 I'm not saying that you're wrong.
 I'm just saying that you're right.
 I'm not saying that you're wrong.
 I'm just saying that you're right.
 I'm not saying that you're wrong.
 I'm just saying that you're right.
 I'm not saying that you're wrong.
 I'm just saying that you're right.
 I'm not saying that you're wrong.
 I'm just saying that you're right.
 I'm not saying that you're wrong.
 I'm not saying that you're wrong.
 I'm just saying that you're right.
 I'm just saying that you're right.
 I'm just saying that you're right.
 I'm just saying that you're right.
 I'm just saying that you're right.
 I'm just saying that you're right.
 I'm just saying that you're right.
 I'm just saying that you're right.
 I'm just saying that you're right.
 I'm just saying that you're right.
 I'm just saying that you're right.
 I'm just saying that you're right.
 I'm just saying that you're right.
 I'm just saying that you're right.
 I'm just saying that you're right.
 I'm just saying that you're right.
 I'm just saying that you're right.
 I'm just saying that you're right.
 I'm just saying that you're right.
 I'm just saying that you're right.
 I'm just saying that you're right.
 I'm just saying that you're right.
 I'm just saying that you're right.
 I'm just saying that you're right.
 I'm just saying that you're right.
 I'm just saying that you're right.
 I'm just saying that you're right.
 I'm just saying that you're right.
 I'm just saying that you're right.
 I'm just saying that you're right.
 I'm just saying that you're right.
 I'm just saying that you're right.
 I'm just saying that you're right.
 I'm just saying that you're right.
 I'm just saying that you're right.
 I'm just saying that you're right.
 I'm just saying that you're right.
 I'm just saying that you're right.
 I'm just saying that you're right.
 I'm just saying that you're right.
 I'm just saying that you're right.
 When Pharaoh and the people of old stood up against God by using their mysticism of science,
 that tells us right there.
 Okay.
 Well, I would not in a million years, sir, argue with you or try to convince you otherwise.
 That is me.
 And I'm happy to listen to you and your views, which I just did.
 I am sorry that you are threatened by discussion of anything that doesn't quite fit into that
 very narrow, specific belief system.
 First time caller on the line, you're on the air.
 Hi.
 Art?
 Yes.
 How are you doing tonight?
 Well, you're listening.
 Oh, yeah.
 Hey, I really liked your last guest.
 He was great.
 Yes, he was very good.
 Yeah.
 And he stirred something up in me.
 I've experienced some time travel.
 Well, he suggests that that really has not occurred yet.
 If you heard his comment on time travel, it was in response to my question,
 if there is time travel, then where are the time travelers?
 His answer was that they will not be here until time travel is invented.
 Yeah, but he's talking about physical.
 No, he was not defining whether at that moment that it becomes possible it will be metaphysical or physical.
 He wasn't defining that.
 He was merely saying when it becomes possible, through whatever means,
 we will then experience many, many time travelers.
 It is the most interesting answer I've ever heard to that dilemma.
 He never explored one aspect of time travel through our genetic code.
 Well, you're right.
 You certainly are correct.
 And as a matter of fact, the discussion we had the other night after the 2020 program may be centered right there.
 In other words, when organs are transplanted from one person to another,
 there may be a genetic memory that is passed on and then fades as time goes on,
 as would seem to be evidenced by those who feel some special urgings or cravings
 or believe they are for a period of time part of another for some period of time.
 That may be a genetic transference.
 A wild card line, you're on the air. Good morning.
 Hi, how are you?
 All right.
 This is Mike Glendale, California.
 Yes, sir.
 A couple of points.
 Whether it be Bible prophecy or remote viewing or any of these areas, it's speculation.
 It's anything but an exact science.
 The remote viewers can't see beyond 212 or 217.
 2012, yeah.
 And our conclusions are just our conclusions.
 They don't mean anything, just like Bible prophecy and people that want to turn it into a fairy tale.
 It doesn't mean nothing.
 We have to look at these things.
 We have to study them scientifically rather than this knee-jerk reaction to go off into the wild blue yonder with speculation.
 And we have to stick with science, what we know, what we can hold on to and not all this other--
 Well, I know, but we also at the same time do not want to be blind to the possibility
 that there are avenues other than the ones we have yet traveled down, if you follow me.
 This is CBZ.
 [Music]
 The devil went down to Georgia.
 He was looking for a soul to steal.
 He was in a bank, but he was way behind.
 He was willing to make a deal.
 And he came across this young man, saw him on a fiddle and playing it hot.
 And the devil jumped up on a heap of drums and, boy, let me tell you what.
 You didn't know it, but I am a fiddle player, too.
 And if you care to take a dare, I'll make a bet with you.
 Now, you play a pretty good fiddle, boy, but give the devil his due.
 I've got a fiddle of gold against your soul, so I think I'm better than you.
 The boy said, "My name's Johnny, and it might be a sin, but I'll take your bet,
 and you're going to regret it, because I'm the bestest ever been."
 Johnny, you're on the pure gold, and play your fiddle hard, and you'll know it's true.
 Midnight at the oasis, send your camel to bed.
 Shadows paint in our faces, traces of romance in our heads.
 Heaven's holding our heads, moon is shining just for us.
 Let's slip off to a sand dune, real soon, kick up a little dust.
 Come on, can't you see it's all fresh?
 Heart Bell is taking calls on the wild card line at 702-727-1295.
 That's 702-727-1295.
 First-time callers can reach Heart Bell at 702-727-1222.
 702-727-1222.
 Now, here again, Heart Bell.
 Once again, here I am, top of the morning, everybody.
 Great to be here in these waning moments.
 Flew by, didn't it? Terrence McKenna.
 Ho, ho, ho, ho. That was fun.
 All right, this is fun, too, to be able to tell you about the best portable radio in the world.
 All right, don't forget, tomorrow night, Sean David Morton will be here at 11 o'clock,
 and then at the midnight hour, the witching hour, here on the West Coast,
 we will have, with a voice-changing device, Victor, if everything goes as planned.
 Now, it doesn't always.
 Victor is the person responsible for taking the video that is alleged to be that of an alien creature
 being interrogated at Area 51 and smuggled out.
 It will be a one-hour opportunity to ask Victor questions.
 Now, that photograph, the second photograph, is on my website right now.
 It is a worldwide exclusive. It is nowhere else.
 So take a look at it, if you can, between now and tomorrow night's show.
 Take a look at the photograph.
 It is what we will be discussing.
 Actually, it will be a wider discussion, but it is relevant in the sense that it's from the video
 that Victor smuggled out of Area 51.
 My website, and of course you can jump to Terrence's from my website as well, is www.artbell.com.
 And I noticed that it has just now gone over 2.5 million main page hits since the first of the year.
 I think it's 2,504,832 as I read it right now.
 So there you are.
 Anyway, make it on up there and take a look for heaven's sakes.
 I think you'll be, at the very least, intrigued.
 And certainly you don't want to miss Sean David Morton, nor do you want to miss Victor.
 Actually, later tonight.
 West of the Rockies, you're on the air. Hi.
 Going once, going twice, going east of the Rockies, you're on the air.
 Hi, Art.
 Hello.
 I'm calling from Greenville, South Carolina.
 Yes, ma'am.
 You go off the air here at 5 a.m., so I'm afraid I've missed the last hour and a half.
 Well, it happens.
 Yeah.
 If you could put up with another Christian for just a moment.
 Well, I can put up with them, period.
 Don't worry.
 A couple of hours ago when that one Christian called in and said that your guest was a disciple of Satan,
 I'm sure you probably know that he did not mean that your guest was in a conspiracy with Satan,
 knowingly perpetrating lies and deception.
 Well, he made it sound that way.
 I know.
 I mean, the tone of the voice and so forth.
 Right.
 Well, what you probably understand -- by the way, I'm halfway through your book, and I enjoy it very much.
 The quickening.
 Yes.
 I'm glad.
 It will get better as you go.
 Oh, I'm in diseases and famines, so I've got earth changes and the end.
 Oh, yes.
 The end, indeed.
 Right.
 And you probably know that your book, The Quickening, in Matthew Chapter 24, was prophesied by Jesus Christ,
 and he called it the beginnings of sorrows, and when you look that up, it means the birth pangs.
 And you know that when a woman is having a baby, the contractions come closer and closer together.
 I know all of that, yes.
 I know that, and I am not in denial with regard to it,
 nor do I disregard the probability that that connection is the correct connection.
 I simply explore others as well, which will cause me to be thrown in a volcano eventually.
 No, but I think you will.
 I'm hoping in my heart that you do come to a knowledge of the truth,
 and what I wanted to say about the caller's tone of voice and a lot of -- well, some Christians.
 I know some Christians are out there, and they're militant, and you said like if a UFO landed and an alien appeared,
 they'd be there with their shotguns and so on.
 You know they would.
 Right, and Christ has -- that has absolutely nothing to do with Christ,
 neither does lobbying in Congress, by the way, because if Christ wanted to,
 he could have lobbied the Roman government, and the only people he yelled at were the religious people.
 Well, look, if people who sinned and were bad were struck down first so all the rest of us could observe,
 who do you think would be the first to go after the lawyers?
 I don't know.
 Everybody, I guess.
 That's right.
 Last man standing.
 Wasn't there a movie, Last Man Standing?
 West of the Rockies, you're on the air.
 Hello.
 Hey, Arpil.
 Thanks a lot for taking my call.
 Sure.
 Are you from KPRO, Central Coast, San Luis Obispo County?
 Yes, sir.
 How are you today?
 Just fine.
 All right.
 Yeah, I just wanted to make a point of my past.
 I tried hallucinogenics.
 What these guys described and what I've experienced is two different things.
 I would never do them again put it that way, and I do have an open mind, by the way.
 But it distorted and made things totally...
 Hallucinogenic.
 Well, let's put it this way.
 Look, that's a rational decision.
 Certainly not me.
 I would not argue with your decision.
 You tried it, and so with experience, you're saying no thanks.
 It scared the hell out of me, to tell you the truth.
 And I don't know if I'd ever want to go back there again because I'm still digging in.
 You too, sir.
 Thank you very much for the call.
 East of the Rockies, you're on the air.
 Good morning.
 Good morning.
 Let me get my radio.
 Yep, get that radio off.
 That's very important.
 This is J.J. from Austin.
 Yes, J.J.
 Hi.
 I have two things.
 First of all, the gentleman that called earlier that said no man would know the day nor the
 hour but didn't say anything about the year.
 Well, J.J., your feet are now dangling in the volcano.
 What's point number two?
 Point number two is I believe that the definition of a pagan is a religion of tribal origin
 from ancient, even Native Americans.
 Well, that might be a little narrow.
 It might fit, but I think the definition of a pagan is a lot broader than that, J.J.
 First time caller on the line, you're on the air.
 Am I?
 I mean, we could have a discussion about it, but I said you were, so you're going to have
 to try and believe me.
 Okay.
 This is Reid from Portland.
 Well, Reid, speak into your phone like you mean it.
 I mean it, Art.
 No, louder.
 Louder.
 I need volume.
 Okay.
 Can you hear me?
 Oh, now you're cooking.
 All right.
 Someone called earlier speaking about time travel, and you stated that --
 I asked.
 Well, you gave the impression that Terrence McKenna said that that was not possible at
 this point.
 Well, he did say that, essentially.
 He said that it will not be possible, and once it does become possible, then the time
 travelers will be here, and the proof that it is not now possible is that they are not.
 He also said something on the CD, Alien Dream Time, that the psychedelic experience was
 something that brought you into a hyperspace in which you could look down upon the past
 and the present, which is not the case.
 Okay, but that's not quite to say you're traveling.
 That is to say you are observing.
 If you could imagine, you are not -- imagine a highway, okay?
 And you're not on the highway.
 You're in a helicopter way up there, and you can see cars five miles back and five miles
 ahead.
 You're not traveling on the highway.
 You're observing the traffic upon it.
 Exactly, but it would give the observer the experience or the impression of traveling
 along the highway.
 Okay, fair enough, but that is not to say that is what you are doing, and that is a
 very important thing to delineate.
 Let's go to the Rockies.
 You're on the air.
 Hi.
 Good morning, Art.
 Good morning.
 Mitch, the Magic Christian calling you from Ventura, California.
 Uh-huh.
 Yeah, I just wanted to drop my two cents in on this Christian versus -- it seems to be
 shaving up -- Christian versus the lion of Terrence McKenna.
 Terrence is a monster, and I mean that -- in my lexicon, that's high praise.
 He's right up there in the troika with Richard C. Hoagland and Stan Dale, as far as I'm concerned.
 He's awesome.
 Yeah.
 And one of the things I wanted to get to before -- I mean, just jump in -- was how does Ramona
 know about the hits of acid?
 Your wife sounds like she might be a little hipper than you, huh?
 Use your imagination.
 I mean, come on.
 Anyway, concerning these -- What do you think?
 We've been living here in a vacuum?
 Yeah, well, okay.
 Anyway, getting back to the condemnation thing on Terrence, you know, I want you guys out
 there that are listening, my brothers and sisters in Christ, to concentrate on the love
 of Jesus.
 You know, there is now no condemnation, that kind of thing.
 And I also want to talk about substances and things.
 After an acid trip that I had back during my teens, I realized that there were no evil
 things.
 You know, you don't give a child a gun, right?
 Because it's a dangerous object.
 Yes.
 And so you don't give people who are full of fear things like LSD or DMT or any of the
 other psychedelic drugs, because they're going to have, like a couple of callers ago, bad
 experiences.
 You've got to be well-grounded to, you know, what do you call it, the ally?
 That's a reasonable comment, thank you.
 It really is one of the more reasonable comments you've ever made.
 And of course, we all know, guns don't kill people.
 Rarely do they leap on up off the table and spray, that's the popular phrase, spray bullets
 about the room, putting holes through Christian-believing people.
 They just don't do that.
 It's the Christian-believing people and others who do that.
 First time caller on the line, you're on the air.
 Hello.
 Going, going, gone.
 East of the Rockies, you're on the air.
 Good morning.
 Hi, Art, it's Clint from Bismarck, North Dakota again.
 Good, welcome.
 Looks like the news is getting a little closer to me here with all this Air Force business
 you were talking about last night.
 I noticed the news is all full of that kind of business again.
 Everybody's saying, "Oh, she was mistreated and it's a travesty of justice," and all that kind of roohaha.
 I think she got away rather lightly under the circumstances.
 And the circumstances were not just that she committed adultery.
 The circumstances were lies and disobedience, not following direct orders,
 and lots of stuff the military doesn't like.
 I really couldn't agree with the argument that, "Well, everybody else does it."
 That was the big thing I thought.
 That never got me out of trouble when I was in grade school.
 I certainly don't think it should get anybody out of trouble in the Air Force.
 Well, it never got me out of trouble at home.
 I mean, I had two sisters, and I tried that one out on my parents many times.
 They were both Marines.
 It never worked. It never worked.
 Back to the topic at hand, I was worried about that where they said,
 "Okay, if somebody invents a time machine in the future, then those time travelers will appear here."
 No, no. Well, Terrence was suggesting that there will come a time when that machine will be invented,
 and from that moment on, you will see many tens of thousands or millions of time travelers.
 Sure, but say this moment in this place always exists because that's where they would travel to.
 So, I mean, this moment would not exist without those time travelers coming back,
 because if it did, then how could they travel here?
 I guess the guy could really tie himself in the knots trying to think about that.
 Yeah, you're trying to destroy me in the final minutes of the show, and I won't put up with it.
 I really hate to do that.
 Have a good morning, Art.
 You too. Thank you very much.
 West of the Rockies, you're on the air. Good morning.
 Oh, good morning.
 This is Phil out of Oregon.
 Yes, Phil.
 Well, I was sitting here listening to folks come call in and complain about possibilities being nil.
 I try to keep an open mind, regardless.
 What possibilities being nil?
 Any possibilities of time travel.
 Possibilities are endless, absolutely endless.
 Yes, sir. 100 percent, I agree.
 The only limiting factor is that which sits on your shoulder.
 Yes, indeed it is.
 I was glad to hear of Terrence McKenna on tonight.
 I've never heard him before.
 Has he been on any of your programs?
 No, he's never been on my program before.
 I mean, Terrence has been around quite a while, actually, but it's a first visit to my program.
 But I tend to do different things here.
 I keep trying to tell people.
 Oh, invite him back, by all means.
 "The Truth of the Gods," "Invisible Landscape" were a couple of his books I wrote down quickly.
 I will check local Walden's bookstore.
 He said it was available anywhere.
 That's what he said.
 Well, my idea...
 Except where there have been massive burnings, probably.
 Volcano, things of the sort.
 I started listening to you recently.
 I really tuned in with your show.
 Thanks for being on.
 Well, thanks for calling.
 Well, I used LSD occasionally when I was younger.
 I found that it definitely intensified the senses.
 I don't know how much enlightenment I gained from it.
 I don't know.
 How strong are your memories of it?
 Oh, very clear.
 I didn't have any major problems with it, hallucinations that would cause me to attempt suicide.
 It was an enjoyable experience for the most part.
 I never got to the point that these gentlemen were at where they had visions or...
 Regular journeys?
 Yes, sir.
 I never achieved that point.
 I no longer use it and that's of my own choice.
 I wouldn't recommend anybody trying to...
 Sure, and as I said to another fellow, that's what I consider to be a rational decision.
 I wouldn't recommend anybody trying to buy it off of the streets, per se.
 I found his "Magic Mushroom Growers Guide" an interesting alternative.
 Oh, you read that book?
 No, sir, I got that written down as well.
 Well, it's a very, very good point.
 In other words, what is purchased off the street is utterly an unknown.
 Unless you are a chemist of great repute and you can carefully analyze exactly what it is,
 then you have no idea, no idea whatsoever what you're getting.
 That probably would lead the inexperienced but eager to consider natural substances that is grown directly without modification from the earth.
 First time caller on the line, you're on the air. Hello.
 Hello.
 Hi.
 Art, I just wanted to call in because I'm a little bit troubled that all of the people seem to be calling in in favor of your guest,
 who I really enjoyed earlier.
 Well, now, I would say it's about 50/50 in the last hour if you count the people who said he was the devil.
 Right, but I guess what concerns me is that everyone who seems to be calling in in favor of him are people who have either taken or want to take psychedelics.
 Well, that would be natural, though, wouldn't it?
 I mean, he is probably Tim Leary's successor, so it would follow that they would probably be predisposed to agreeing with him.
 Well, I just wanted to say that I have never taken any drugs at all, and I found his comments to be very interesting and very enlightening.
 Well, look, he was obviously extremely literate, extremely articulate, and you can argue with the premises presented,
 but I don't think you can make a case that his brain has been frizzed.
 Right.
 Well, I mean, you could, but --
 Yeah, I mean, I think he just had some very interesting ideas.
 Regardless, I hate to see mind-expanding ideas always linked to -- not always linked, but in this case, so frequently linked to the use of psychedelics
 because there are other things that you can do to expand your mind and have new experiences and things like that as well.
 I would say, in fact, the great majority of my guests who have talked of similar spiritual things have made very strong claims that the very same things can be achieved without the use of psychedelics.
 This was merely another view.
 Well, thanks for having him on. It was very interesting.
 It was. Now, listen, you get the honors tonight because we're out of time.
 Uh-oh.
 In your own words, sir.
 I'm sorry. I don't know what you're asking.
 Oh, say goodnight.
 Well, goodnight to everybody. Thanks for having me on.
 See, that's how it's done. It's that simple. I'm Art Bell. See you tomorrow night. Good night, all.
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